Harry Soo's 145° chicken...thoughts? - Page 3

Ron_L · 02-01-2013, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaybls

Harry is on to something. Here's the science behind his technique: At 140°F, a hold time of 35 minutes is necessary for chicken (with 12% fat) to be sufficiently pasteurized, and safe to eat. The leaner the chicken, the less time it has to be held. 1% fat requires 25 minutes at 140°F to be safe. Chicken heated to 155°F IT need only be held at that temp for 1 minute before it's "safe." Why then does the USDA suggest 165°F? One reason is that's the temp Salmonella dies a quick death. Another, it's a "keep it simple" solution that most people can adhere to. If your thermometer is off, or you pull it off a little early - say 160°F - you're still safe. I cook my chicken to 155-160°F and it's perfect.

Where are those hold times coming from? The report that Gore linked above shows much lower times.

But, if we go with yours, they actually go against Harry's technique instead of showing that he is on to something. He's holding for significantly less than the 25 - 35 minute range that you indicate.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but there is a lot of data flying around in this thread and it needs to be backed up by a source.

Ron_L · 02-01-2013, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gore

I didn't see or hear what he said, but the study seems to back him up. I don't think we're all in agreement about a reliable, clean source of chicken. From all I've read, the local farm that kills and preps their chickens themselves have about a 1 in 10,000 shot of being contaminated by salmonella, yet any of the big manufacturers that you get in your local supermarket have about a 1 in 3 shot of being contaminated. Yet it is the former that are considered to be unsafe and unreliable and the latter that are considered safe.

Excellent point. Notice that I didn't define what that reliable, clean source was? :)

Jaybls · 02-01-2013, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron_L

Where are those hold times coming from? The report that Gore linked above shows much lower times.

But, if we go with yours, they actually go against Harry's technique instead of showing that he is on to something. He's holding for significantly less than the 25 - 35 minute range that you indicate.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but there is a lot of data flying around in this thread and it needs to be backed up by a source.

Take into account a slight temperature rise during the rest. It won't be much, but if he's pulling the chicken off the grill at 145°F, and depending on how hot the pit is, he can expect as much as 5-7 degrees in the rise - taking the temp up above 150°F. (My data comes from: http://www.fsis.usda.gov/OPPDE/rdad/...try_Tables.pdf.)

jbrink01 · 02-01-2013, 11:27 AM

Nobody mentioned the skin (or I missed it). I assume you'd be cooking on a 300+ grill and crisping the skin?

Swamp Donkeyz BBQ · 02-01-2013, 11:30 AM

If you listen to the podcast it makes more sense. If I'm not mistaken that's what he does with his comp chicken. And as we all know, he wins a lot in chicken.

BB-Kuhn · 02-01-2013, 11:33 AM

Well, Harry got top spot as Champion in the Chicken category at the KCBS end of year results.

We can call BS on this all day long, but to pretend he doesn't know what's up is ludicrous.

big brother smoke · 02-01-2013, 11:34 AM

Harry is not the first successful comp guy to cook his chicken to lower than traditional temp and have success. Time in the heat is key here and it is not just a black and white issue as it relates to internal temp and acceptable doneness.

There are also ways to have your chicken +190 degrees and juicy.

bigabyte · 02-01-2013, 11:42 AM

I see this has turned into just a safety discussion, but I'm still not quite sold on the tenderness thing. It should be more tender at both lower temps and higher temps than at 145. 145 is right in the middle of the tough meat temps. It may be tender in the sense that you can chew it, but among all temps of doneness, that should be less tender than temps lower, and temps in the 180+ range.

Ron_L · 02-01-2013, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BB-Kuhn

Well, Harry got top spot as Champion in the Chicken category at the KCBS end of year results.

We can call BS on this all day long, but to pretend he doesn't know what's up is ludicrous.

No one is pretending that he doesn't know what's up, and it's hard to argue with his results. We're just discussing it

lastmajordude · 02-01-2013, 12:14 PM

Raw Oysters, veggies, steak I love......but raw chicken and hamburger....how do you say Hell No in Harry's language?

Ron_L · 02-01-2013, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbrink01

Nobody mentioned the skin (or I missed it). I assume you'd be cooking on a 300+ grill and crisping the skin?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swamp Donkeyz BBQ

If you listen to the podcast it makes more sense. If I'm not mistaken that's what he does with his comp chicken. And as we all know, he wins a lot in chicken.

I did listen to it and he never talks about his process. He mentiones that he cooks the whole KCBS comp on one WSM, so it doesn't sound like he has a grill available.

He also says that he cooks a breast to 145 then wraps it in foil and lets it sit. That's not the same as holding it at 145.

gettinbasted · 02-01-2013, 12:50 PM

It is the same concept behind sous vide meat. Basically you are pasteurizing the chicken completely safe. The fat and collagen can break down at these low temps as well if you can hold it in the sweet spot long enough. Very hard to do with dry heat.

martyleach · 02-01-2013, 12:55 PM

I'll see what I can find out tomorrow. I am in his class here in the Bay Area. He definitely doesn't follow the traditional ways. That 's why I'm so excited to go!

pvelyk · 02-01-2013, 01:05 PM

He stated on the show that his method is based on the studies of Juneja (Spelling?) and the test was done via peer review methods including grinding the meat and purposeful inoculation of bacteria. Thus they has made sure the meat had bugs and the bugs were not just on the outside of the meat but on the inside so that much like hamburger this is a worse case scenario. The process of hitting 145 degrees and holding at that temperature for a set time in these tests showed results of no live bacteria and thus safe to eat. He went on to say based upon this research the time required to hold it at was less than 10 minutes but he goes with 10 minutes to err on the side of safety.

big brother smoke · 02-01-2013, 01:09 PM

I have said it time and time again. "Chicken is the Devil"!

02-01-2013, 11:27 AM	#34
jbrink01 is Blowin Smoke! Join Date: 08-17-06 Location: Washington, Missouri	Nobody mentioned the skin (or I missed it). I assume you'd be cooking on a 300+ grill and crisping the skin? __________________ [CENTER][B][/B] [/CENTER] [CENTER][B][I][B]KCBS #13207[/B][/I][/B][/CENTER] [CENTER][B][I]2013 Insane Can Posse [/I][I]Tour [/I][/B][/CENTER] [CENTER][I]Sponsored By: [/I][/CENTER] [CENTER][B][I]Gateway BBQ Store[/I][/B][/CENTER] [CENTER][B][I]Blues Hog BBQ Company[/I][/B][/CENTER] [CENTER][B][I]Plowboys BBQ Company[/I][/B][/CENTER]

02-01-2013, 11:33 AM	#36
BB-Kuhn Take a breath! Join Date: 12-27-12 Location: Warrenville, IL	Well, Harry got top spot as Champion in the Chicken category at the KCBS end of year results. We can call BS on this all day long, but to pretend he doesn't know what's up is ludicrous. __________________ Cat Daddy's BBQ : 22.5 WSM / PBC / Akorn / Weber OTG 22.5 Cajun Bandit / Smokey Joe Gold

02-01-2013, 11:34 AM	#37
big brother smoke somebody shut me the fark up. Join Date: 05-03-06 Location: Ventura, CA	Harry is not the first successful comp guy to cook his chicken to lower than traditional temp and have success. Time in the heat is key here and it is not just a black and white issue as it relates to internal temp and acceptable doneness. There are also ways to have your chicken +190 degrees and juicy. __________________ Peace and Smoke, BBS Powered by the West Coast Offense: Big Poppa Smokers and Simply Marvelous BBQ - "Walk with Us" My weapons: Humphrey's Smokers

02-01-2013, 11:42 AM	#38
bigabyte somebody shut me the fark up. Join Date: 05-10-06 Location: Overland Fark, KS	I see this has turned into just a safety discussion, but I'm still not quite sold on the tenderness thing. It should be more tender at both lower temps and higher temps than at 145. 145 is right in the middle of the tough meat temps. It may be tender in the sense that you can chew it, but among all temps of doneness, that should be less tender than temps lower, and temps in the 180+ range. __________________ Asshattatron Farkanaut, CGCFO Chief Galactic Crockpot Foil Officer *Certified MOINK Baller & IMBAS Certified MOINK Ball Judge #0003 - Are you MOINK Certified?* *Sole recipient of the Silverfinger and fingerlickin Awards!* Don't forget about the Throwdown Thingies! The Secret Squirrel Society doesn't exist - Zero Club Duh.

02-01-2013, 12:14 PM	#40
lastmajordude is Blowin Smoke! Join Date: 03-11-12 Location: The "Poah" side of Madison Co. Mississippi Name/Nickname : Dude	Raw Oysters, veggies, steak I love......but raw chicken and hamburger....how do you say Hell No in Harry's language? __________________ Jambo stick burner (dedicated to my dad...Big John) / Weber kettle / Blue Rhino 36” griddle / Battle Grey Hunsaker drum. "When food is cooked in a kitchen people think how good it smells, when cooked outside it is intoxicating to their soul"..... The Dude

02-01-2013, 11:30 AM	#35
Swamp Donkeyz BBQ is one Smokin' Farker Join Date: 07-25-12 Location: Huntsville, Tx	If you listen to the podcast it makes more sense. If I'm not mistaken that's what he does with his comp chicken. And as we all know, he wins a lot in chicken.

02-01-2013, 12:50 PM	#42
gettinbasted is One Chatty Farker Join Date: 09-14-12 Location: Springfield, MO	It is the same concept behind sous vide meat. Basically you are pasteurizing the chicken completely safe. The fat and collagen can break down at these low temps as well if you can hold it in the sweet spot long enough. Very hard to do with dry heat. __________________ Gateway Drums - THE Insane Can Posse - gettinbasted.com

02-01-2013, 12:55 PM	#43
martyleach Quintessential Chatty Farker Join Date: 12-17-10 Location: Pleasanton, Ca	I'll see what I can find out tomorrow. I am in his class here in the Bay Area. He definitely doesn't follow the traditional ways. That 's why I'm so excited to go! __________________ XL BGE, Kamado Joe Jr, Santa Maria pit, 26" Weber custom performer, MAK One Star pellet cooker, 14.5" WSM, Jumbo Joe, WGA, Arte Flame griddle insert for the 26" Weber. Custom wooden handles for BBQ's made by Marty Leach (oh, that's me) [url]http://www.amlwoodart.com[/url]

02-01-2013, 01:05 PM	#44
pvelyk Is lookin for wood to cook with. Join Date: 02-20-12 Location: Rochester, NY	He stated on the show that his method is based on the studies of Juneja (Spelling?) and the test was done via peer review methods including grinding the meat and purposeful inoculation of bacteria. Thus they has made sure the meat had bugs and the bugs were not just on the outside of the meat but on the inside so that much like hamburger this is a worse case scenario. The process of hitting 145 degrees and holding at that temperature for a set time in these tests showed results of no live bacteria and thus safe to eat. He went on to say based upon this research the time required to hold it at was less than 10 minutes but he goes with 10 minutes to err on the side of safety.

02-01-2013, 01:09 PM	#45
big brother smoke somebody shut me the fark up. Join Date: 05-03-06 Location: Ventura, CA	I have said it time and time again. "Chicken is the Devil"! __________________ Peace and Smoke, BBS Powered by the West Coast Offense: Big Poppa Smokers and Simply Marvelous BBQ - "Walk with Us" My weapons: Humphrey's Smokers