Vision
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This could be interesting on breasts, but on thighs the texture wouldn't be good IMO.
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Harry Soo's 145° chicken...thoughts?
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Smoothsmoke
Babbling Farker
IDK what to think of this, but I had Soo's chicken thighs at a comp once, good eating for sure!
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I couldn't find a way to see the full report for any of those, but I admit that I didn't try too hard :-D But, it looks to me that only the last one is applicable. The first deals with salmonella growth in live poultry and the middle three deal with cooling of ground chicken.
OK, assume that Harry did the research and the various bacteria, etc. in chicken is killed by cooking to 145 and holding for at least 5 minutes. I still question the texture. Breasts at 155 are still somewhat rubbery and thighs at 165 are not as tender as they are at higher temps.
Plus, what does the juice from chicken at 145 (for 10 minutes) look like. KCBS judges are taught to look for clear juices and can refuse to eat an entry if the juices are pink. That's not a risk that I want to take.
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As stated earlier, the lethality of salmonella is a function of both temperature and time. This has been mentioned various times. Here is an old post by Knucklhed:
If you're cooking the chicken at fairly low temps, then you're probably not going to need to be resting that chicken very long. This definitely supports Harry Soo's chicken. It also suggests very strongly that most salmonella problems are due to cross-contamination, rather than cooking temps.
As Landarc mentions, the high cooking temperatures required for chicken are regional. They are the result of our high throughput chicken processing. In many other countries, chicken is cooked rare to medium rare. Bob mentions Asian countries, but it is also true of Slavic countries.
If you're cooking the chicken at fairly low temps, then you're probably not going to need to be resting that chicken very long. This definitely supports Harry Soo's chicken. It also suggests very strongly that most salmonella problems are due to cross-contamination, rather than cooking temps.
As Landarc mentions, the high cooking temperatures required for chicken are regional. They are the result of our high throughput chicken processing. In many other countries, chicken is cooked rare to medium rare. Bob mentions Asian countries, but it is also true of Slavic countries.
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Thanks, Gore... i was looking for that.
Actually, it goes against what harry says. He says in the comments at the BBQ Central site this...
Based on the chart that Knucklhed posted, the recommended time at 145 is 10.7 minutes.
But again, let's assume that chicken from a reliable, clean source is safe at that temp, and we as cooks are able to buy from a source like that. I still question the texture.
swamprb
somebody shut me the fark up.
Did he mention if he was brining or not?
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BTW, if you read the original doc linked above it shows that beef should be at 130 degrees for a minimum of 121 minutes in order to reach the safe level of salmonella but we don't bat an eye about cooking beef to 120 or 125.
luke duke
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Not necessarily true.
Jaybls
Got Wood.
Harry is on to something. Here's the science behind his technique: At 140°F, a hold time of 35 minutes is necessary for chicken (with 12% fat) to be sufficiently pasteurized, and safe to eat. The leaner the chicken, the less time it has to be held. 1% fat requires 25 minutes at 140°F to be safe. Chicken heated to 155°F IT need only be held at that temp for 1 minute before it's "safe." Why then does the USDA suggest 165°F? One reason is that's the temp Salmonella dies a quick death. Another, it's a "keep it simple" solution that most people can adhere to. If your thermometer is off, or you pull it off a little early - say 160°F - you're still safe. I cook my chicken to 155-160°F and it's perfect.
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I didn't see or hear what he said, but the study seems to back him up. I don't think we're all in agreement about a reliable, clean source of chicken. From all I've read, the local farm that kills and preps their chickens themselves have about a 1 in 10,000 shot of being contaminated by salmonella, yet any of the big manufacturers that you get in your local supermarket have about a 1 in 3 shot of being contaminated. Yet it is the former that are considered to be unsafe and unreliable and the latter that are considered safe. :crazy:
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Where are those hold times coming from? The report that Gore linked above shows much lower times.
But, if we go with yours, they actually go against Harry's technique instead of showing that he is on to something. He's holding for significantly less than the 25 - 35 minute range that you indicate.
I'm not trying to be argumentative, but there is a lot of data flying around in this thread and it needs to be backed up by a source.
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Jaybls
Got Wood.
Take into account a slight temperature rise during the rest. It won't be much, but if he's pulling the chicken off the grill at 145°F, and depending on how hot the pit is, he can expect as much as 5-7 degrees in the rise - taking the temp up above 150°F. (My data comes from: http://www.fsis.usda.gov/OPPDE/rdad/FSISNotices/RTE_Poultry_Tables.pdf.)
jbrink01
is One Chatty Farker
Nobody mentioned the skin (or I missed it). I assume you'd be cooking on a 300+ grill and crisping the skin?
Swamp Donkeyz BBQ
is one Smokin' Farker
If you listen to the podcast it makes more sense. If I'm not mistaken that's what he does with his comp chicken. And as we all know, he wins a lot in chicken.
BB-Kuhn
Full Fledged Farker
Well, Harry got top spot as Champion in the Chicken category at the KCBS end of year results.
We can call BS on this all day long, but to pretend he doesn't know what's up is ludicrous.
We can call BS on this all day long, but to pretend he doesn't know what's up is ludicrous.
Harry is not the first successful comp guy to cook his chicken to lower than traditional temp and have success. Time in the heat is key here and it is not just a black and white issue as it relates to internal temp and acceptable doneness.
There are also ways to have your chicken +190 degrees and juicy.
There are also ways to have your chicken +190 degrees and juicy.
bigabyte
somebody shut me the fark up.
I see this has turned into just a safety discussion, but I'm still not quite sold on the tenderness thing. It should be more tender at both lower temps and higher temps than at 145. 145 is right in the middle of the tough meat temps. It may be tender in the sense that you can chew it, but among all temps of doneness, that should be less tender than temps lower, and temps in the 180+ range.
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No one is pretending that he doesn't know what's up, and it's hard to argue with his results. We're just discussing it :-D
lastmajordude
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Raw Oysters, veggies, steak I love......but raw chicken and hamburger....how do you say Hell No in Harry's language?
