rep advisories

roksmith said:

I don't mind the parting rule, and wouldn't mind it going a bit further. Make the entire turn in box come from a single piece of meat/slab of ribs. Other than chicken of course.
In fact if you really wanted to turn this into a skills competition, allow only a single butt, a single brisket and a single slab of ribs to be cooked. Now.. you are testing the abilities of the pitmaster.
It takes much more skill to produce suitable turn in quality meat when you only have one shot at it.

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Throw me in the penalty box because I am going to agree with you and take the thread farther off topic: I think whole cooked shoulders should have to be turned in. Yes, whole, picked/pulled at the table. FWIW, I think whole chickens should have to be turned in too. And full racks of ribs. Brisket is "slices from a flat". I understand I am crazy :loco: and these things will never ever ever happen and present their own problems. So ...

Back on topic, lets ask what the intent of the "pork cut definition", and the "no parting" rule are to begin with: To ensure teams are cooking "classic" pork shoulder, in the "traditional" style. What is so wrong with that? (and if you want to argue those terms are unclear, then you will find an argument in just about anytthing you want)

As an aside, when possible, I am all for REDUCING rules in order to add clarity, rather than adding to them. It is possible.

maybe the way to fix it is not to allow parting in any category so that our rules are consistant.

I don't understand why you guys serve cold pork? Why can't you reheat the whole butt?

Why is it that we can't understand the intent of the rule. It wasn't to limit your saucing technique, it wasn't to offer you the opportunity to butterfly out the butt into a 2 ft long slab of meat, it wasn't to promote the near separation of the money muscle it was to offer a legitimate starting point that all could achieve. A weight to make sure it wasn't suckling and a large dense cut to showcase technique.


Somehow the "voices of BBQ" have turned this rule into something its not. For some reason people tend to think that the parting rule was meant for all time. Cradle to grave so to speak. Unfortunately that makes you wonder when in fact you can actually dismantle the pork to put it in the box. In fact the only way the rule, as it was written for so long, can be interpreted as they say would mean that the whole entire butt be placed in the box unmolested. Because it states "and not parted". Don't tell me thats foolish because grammatically that is the only interpretation. If you feel that at any point in the process, even at the time of box building, that the pork can be dismantled then you must accept that when the butt has been cooked and removed with possibly resting it can be dismantled. At this point your only issue is to keep it warm. Some will say "You can cheat that way" and I will reply that I could cut my butt into 16 pieces cook it however I liked and probably get away with it. Does that mean I will? In the end our trust in our fellow competitors integrity is the only thing that makes any of this work. We can't approach this as a law to be enforced but rather a guideline for competitors to follow. Which is what all of our rules are. For some reason this one has really blown up because of many different perceptions of the rule. A real powderkeg. But when all is said and done we have to realize that this society was founded by friendly people with a friendly set of guidelines to ensure as fair a contest as possible. The competitor was charged with ensuring their own integrity. The large prize pools and lucrative sponsorships and ancillary winnings have some looking for more restrictions. Something they feel will ensure a better outcome. Unfortunately it will probably only create a different outcome and in doing so may change the face of a society many like just the way it is. The membership as a whole needs to decide if we want to hold dear the traditions set forth by the founders or if we want to go forward being more of a contests then a BBQ showcase with prizes. If its all about the money then everything else falls away.

Lastly may I say that removing the pork parting rule completely would be devastating to the category and to the integrity of the rules set. Integrity is based on consistency not only in measure and principle but in action and expectation. The rules tend to inspire technique whereas the removal of a challenge such as this will dumb down the category. The need for a defined portion of meat changes if the parting rule is removed as well. Why limit to a shoulder, or part thereof, if there is not expectation of cooking it whole in a traditional manner?

Skip said:

But when all is said and done we have to realize that this society was founded by friendly people with a friendly set of guidelines to ensure as fair a contest as possible. The competitor was charged with ensuring their own integrity. The large prize pools and lucrative sponsorships and ancillary winnings have some looking for more restrictions. Something they feel will ensure a better outcome. Unfortunately it will probably only create a different outcome and in doing so may change the face of a society many like just the way it is. The membership as a whole needs to decide if we want to hold dear the traditions set forth by the founders or if we want to go forward being more of a contests then a BBQ showcase with prizes. If its all about the money then everything else falls away.

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My comments are mine, and mine alone and do not represent KCBS or the board...

Well reasoned and presented. Just as importantly, the rules/guidelines were established to create a level playing field. A past board ruled on the issue, and issued an advisory that has been read at cooks meetings. The intent? Keep the playing field level.

I know a lot of great cooks that have found methods to still cook within the rules and turn in a superior product the judges will reward them for. I have NO DOUBT that there are other cooks that are taking some shortcuts. Who is that most likely to hurt? You probably won't find many victims at the top of the ToY standings, or picking up checks on Saturday. The teams that are most likely to be harmed are those in the middle of the pack.

Personally, I have no problem seeing the parting rule going away. I didn't have a problem arguing for it at the time this was a raging debate two years ago. It was the rule at that time, and needed to be upheld for at least the remainder of that season. If someone is going to sub a tenderloin they will do it regardless. With the techniques developed I really don't see many people taking the risk, but some may. If they get caught, they need to pay the penalty. Everybody else, cook and enjoy yourselves.

Earlier in this thread it was suggested that cooks be limited to one piece of meat per category to create a great test of ability. Doesn't that also introduce more of an element of chance? Each piece of meat cooks differently. I'd hate to see someone penalized because a beautiful slab of ribs remained tough even though they appeared nice and well marbled. Beyond that, I've spoken to more than one VERY WELL KNOWN cook that only cooks one brisket or one butt. The theory being that they are monitoring fewer pieces of meat and it's easier for them.

Ultimately, I'd like to see cooks with more options rather than less.

My apologies. i seem to have missed the point of comparison with the quoted text?

Are we agreeing or disagreeing?

Skip said:

My apologies. i seem to have missed the point of comparison with the quoted text?

Are we agreeing or disagreeing?

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Perhaps I missed the point of yours:mrgreen:

Smoke'n Ice said:

Why not change the rule on pork butt to read:
PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of five (5) pounds. Pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out) and shall not be trimmed or separated except to remove excess fat. The meat must be cooked to a minimum internal temperature of 145 degree F. Once this temperature is reached, the pork may be removed from the cooker, separated, parted, wrapped, etc. and returned to the cooker or not. At this point in the cook cycle, rule 17, section g and h must be adhered to.

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Completely unenforceable. Who is going to stand around with a ThermoPen and make sure it's being upheld?

Jeff_in_KC said:

Completely unenforceable. Who is going to stand around with a ThermoPen and make sure it's being upheld?

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The same person who is standing around making sure we don't part the pork and put it back on.

You missed the point, temp guidelines are needed to ensure food safety based on FDA requirements and that is why they are a part of the rules now. Who enforces them, me and my cook, not the HD, at my restaurant. The HD makes the rules and we follow them. The consequences are somewhat severe if we don't, sickness, lawsuits and loss of business license.

Simplify, and bring into line with the other categories, the rules since they are only enforceable, in the most part, by the cooks, and allow them to at least practice food safety legally. Four hours in the danger zone is a lifetime for most food borne illnesses.

You put in FDA temperature guidelines as a defensible position for future actions if it becomes necessary.

Jeff_in_KC said:

Completely unenforceable. Who is going to stand around with a ThermoPen and make sure it's being upheld?

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Just so I am clear, are you saying that if a rule can not be enforced, it should not be a rule?

Jeff_in_KC said:

Completely unenforceable. Who is going to stand around with a ThermoPen and make sure it's being upheld?

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Disagree. If there are 3 or 4 spot checks on teams on Saturday morning by the reps. You wouldn't have teams cheating. The reps can keep it random by pulling the teams out of a hat. With that threat of being caught would be a bigger hindrance than what we have now.

Scottie said:

Disagree. If there are 3 or 4 spot checks on teams on Saturday morning by the reps. You wouldn't have teams cheating. The reps can keep it random by pulling the teams out of a hat. With that threat of being caught would be a bigger hindrance than what we have now.

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I do not work for a restaurant but I am a ServSafe cook. Food borne illness is just terrible! I don't want to be the cause of any person's gastric distress because I've not followed correct food handling procedures. I like this idea. Not just for one category though. Proper food handling should be a goal of every cook team.

This is only my opinion...

Candy Sue said:

I do not work for a restaurant but I am a ServSafe cook. Food borne illness is just terrible! I don't want to be the cause of any person's gastric distress because I've not followed correct food handling procedures. I like this idea. Not just for one category though. Proper food handling should be a goal of every cook team.

This is only my opinion...

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It would be nice to have someone teach or give an overview of ServSafe procedures to the cooks before/after the cook's meeting.

Rich Parker said:

It would be nice to have someone teach or give an overview of ServSafe procedures to the cooks before/after the cook's meeting.

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I think Paul Kirk is working on that. Another decade or so and he should have a report.

Rich Parker said:

It would be nice to have someone teach or give an overview of ServSafe procedures to the cooks before/after the cook's meeting.

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drbbq said:

I think Paul Kirk is working on that. Another decade or so and he should have a report.

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Great:wacko: Then you'll have to take the KCBS official "CSCC*" (Certified Safe Competition Cook*) class for $100 and keep your membership current to be allowed to compete.






*CSCC and Certified Safe Competition Cook are the intellectual property of Slamdunkpro and may not be reproduced, utilized or otherwise incorporated into any food related contest or event, existing or in the future, conducted in any medium, on any planet known or unknown or any any realm of reality or dimension discovered or undiscovered without paying huge residuals and royalties in perpetuity. Failure to abide by these, or any other conditions that I might think up now or after the fact will result in a C&D letter of the most forceful language.

Actually, there are servsafe courses available on CD with a test online at the end. It would be simple for KCBS to make it available to the membership on a cost plus basis on the website.

Rich Parker said:

It would be nice to have someone teach or give an overview of ServSafe procedures to the cooks before/after the cook's meeting.

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Smoke'n Ice said:

Actually, there are servsafe courses available on CD with a test online at the end. It would be simple for KCBS to make it available to the membership on a cost plus basis on the website.

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In all seriousness I don't think we want to open that door. No one goes out with the idea of making anyone sick. Once you open the ServSafe door how far is it to every competitor has to have a HD permit / inspection / all equipment has to be NSF / all sites have to have ground cover / hair nets / there has to be a ServSafe food manager on site for the entire duration / any off site prep has to be done in a certified commissary and on and on and on.

I know that all the caterers with rigs will read this and go "so, I do it all the time" and that's great, but most comp cooks aren't caterers. If you want to crush the life out of a expanding game / sport / pastime, smother it with over the top government regulation.

I don't think the intent would be to intorduce it as a requirement but only as a guidline. An example is what is the minimum temp that each of the products we cook is required to reach? What is the hot hold temp? what is the low hold temp? what is the time and temp for reheat? what is the time for hold outside safe zone? what do you do with the product once it is outside the safe zone time? What do you do to the product that has been outside the safe zone but is still within the time line? Record keeping? HAND WASHING prior to gloving! why is that necessary? use of sanitizer! These are just a few of the guidlines that most competition cooks don't know or realize their importance.

Smoke'n Ice said:

I don't think the intent would be to intorduce it as a requirement but only as a guidline. An example is what is the minimum temp that each of the products we cook is required to reach? What is the hot hold temp? what is the low hold temp? what is the time and temp for reheat? what is the time for hold outside safe zone? what do you do with the product once it is outside the safe zone time? What do you do to the product that has been outside the safe zone but is still within the time line? Record keeping? HAND WASHING prior to gloving! why is that necessary? use of sanitizer! These are just a few of the guidlines that most competition cooks don't know or realize their importance.

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I respectfully disagree - First, guidelines have a habit of becoming rules. Second, comp cooks aren't running a day long vend or restaurant operation. Comp temperatures and sanitation are specified in the rules and most contests are well within the window of hold times. Do you seriously expect comp cooks to keep temp logs?

How about we go to the system like the People's Choice at MIM so everyone is SAFE? When you take your turn in box to the table there's someone there with a thermometer; they open your box and in goes the probe! Not at 140? Well we have this handy oven, please empty your box into a aluminum pan and we'll put it in the oven for 10 minutes at 500 degrees to insure it's SAFE. Then you can reload your turn in box and submit it for judging. Yeah, this was a bit of a stretch,,,,,or is it?