Time to stir the kcbs bod pot again!!

CaptTable said:
Where I beg to differ is that it is never "as simple as asking the organizer how many teams and how many categories". Many contests will accept applicants up to and incuding the Friday of the contest (especially if there is a Backyard contest). If there are ancillary categories, most teams can sign up as late as when we are passing out boxes on Friday.

Then you have to worry about opening up the boxes to pass them out on Friday and UPS/Fedex has done their usual job of protecting your shipment and half are split (unusable) in some way. Too late to order more so you are back to the organizer having to go buy some then they might not be the exact type.

The idea of ONE box for all sounds nice, but I just don't think it feasible.

And remember, many, many contests are seeral miles from a Sam's while a Costco, etc. may be there in town.
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Yes, these are concerns that would have to be worked out some way. Sending an additional number of trays would cover that part. Any leftovers could be used for the next year.

Ups and Fed X are a major concern so heavier shipping boxes would have to be used.

The other option here is to come up with a manufacture and a order number for a box that is required to be used.
 
I completely understand that the logistics for procurring anything can be tough but giving the right people the right resources would be a good first step. If the organizer two weeks out needs 400 boxes then have them order an extra 100. That is a whole $8.34 plus freight. Having been to a contest where the organizer used a biodegradable paper style wax lined box that was like a sponge was a disaster.
I order from Sams Club four times a month and in eight years I have never had an incorrect shipment.
Instead of looking at what can't be done, as a candidate for the KCBS BOD I want to encourage a positive outlook, use available resources, and create a standard in which every cook know what she or he is going to be using, and what every rep and organizer can count on, and what every judge is expecting.
 
Maybe I'm going to lose some support here but you guys CAN'T be serious about this clamshell issue! With all of the talk going on by membership about micromanaging by KCBS, you are wanting them to mandate that a certain clamshell is used for all contests nationwide? Talk about micromanaging! If I get an 8 1/2 box one week and a 9 inch box the next, it's not going to kill me. I accept the box, build my parsley bed and put meat in it. And if it's a little deeper one week than others, so be it. Besides the fact that it would be micromanaging, it's a crap shoot to put styrofoam boxes in a big box and expect them to be delievered undamaged. Add to that the completely uncessary costs involved to KCBS in paying for shipping and the also unecessary warehousing on said boxes.

So BJ, who's paying that additional freight? You're going to ask an organizer to pay it when they could just run down to a Sam's Club or wherever they normally get their clamshells and buy them cheaper? No? So you're going to ask KCBS to pay this freight to over 300 contests all across the country. Either way, very weak.

We have many more pressing issues in KCBS that need to be addressed. Myself, Steve, George and Dave have been talking about "bigger picture" and this is so minor, it shouldn't even be on the radar.
 
Jeff_in_KC said:
Maybe I'm going to lose some support here but you guys CAN'T be serious about this clamshell issue! With all of the talk going on by membership about micromanaging by KCBS, you are wanting them to mandate that a certain clamshell is used for all contests nationwide? Talk about micromanaging! If I get an 8 1/2 box one week and a 9 inch box the next, it's not going to kill me. I accept the box, build my parsley bed and put meat in it. And if it's a little deeper one week than others, so be it. Besides the fact that it would be micromanaging, it's a crap shoot to put styrofoam boxes in a big box and expect them to be delievered undamaged. Add to that the completely uncessary costs involved to KCBS in paying for shipping and the also unecessary warehousing on said boxes.

So BJ, who's paying that additional freight? You're going to ask an organizer to pay it when they could just run down to a Sam's Club or wherever they normally get their clamshells and buy them cheaper? No? So you're going to ask KCBS to pay this freight to over 300 contests all across the country. Either way, very weak.

We have many more pressing issues in KCBS that need to be addressed. Myself, Steve, George and Dave have been talking about "bigger picture" and this is so minor, it shouldn't even be on the radar.
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Bingo. If anything, it's a subject that could be discussed amongst one of the committees but certainly not a topic that the board needs to worry about directly.
 
I understand your point Roy. At the end of the day I think it would be more efficient and productive for KCBS to solicit samples from manufacturers and compile a list of containers with similar dimensions and provide those SKUS to organizers.

At the end of the day, shipping containers or having them drop shipped takes up a lot of hours during the heart of the season and then becomes the responsibility of KCBS because we have become the middleman.

It's a value added option for the organizer that chooses to inform his teams which container will be on site. Some teams won't care, some will, but the bases are covered for all without incurring extra cost or liability.

As an organizer, you tell me, do you want to deal with scrambling for boxes if your shipment shows up with major damage?
 
Jeff_in_KC said:
Maybe I'm going to lose some support here but you guys CAN'T be serious about this clamshell issue! With all of the talk going on by membership about micromanaging by KCBS, you are wanting them to mandate that a certain clamshell is used for all contests nationwide? Talk about micromanaging! If I get an 8 1/2 box one week and a 9 inch box the next, it's not going to kill me. I accept the box, build my parsley bed and put meat in it. And if it's a little deeper one week than others, so be it. Besides the fact that it would be micromanaging, it's a crap shoot to put styrofoam boxes in a big box and expect them to be delievered undamaged. Add to that the completely uncessary costs involved to KCBS in paying for shipping and the also unecessary warehousing on said boxes.

So BJ, who's paying that additional freight? You're going to ask an organizer to pay it when they could just run down to a Sam's Club or wherever they normally get their clamshells and buy them cheaper? No? So you're going to ask KCBS to pay this freight to over 300 contests all across the country. Either way, very weak.

We have many more pressing issues in KCBS that need to be addressed. Myself, Steve, George and Dave have been talking about "bigger picture" and this is so minor, it shouldn't even be on the radar.
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I agree, there are other more important concerns but, for the person that asked the question this was of some kind of importance and as a leader you have to address concerns from everyone no matter how big or small. *Being an equal opporunity listener is important. *
Your concern, my concern, and this person's concern are all different and would be prioritized differently but all deserve attention.
Having been in a situation recently where the boxes were an absolute nightmare and having written an article on BBQCRITIC.COM about it I think that the person asking the question had a point and some of the comments and emails I received after writing the article on BBQCRITIC.COM makes me believe that this is worth addressing.
As for the logistics of getting them, it isn't a big deal. *People worried about them being damaged in transport need to look at the fact that an organizer could buy them from ABC Clamshell supply in their own town, put them in their car and have a multitude of things happen to them.
Let's look at the positives that could be achieved by having them drop shipped a week prior to the contest and if the good Lord unleashes fire and brimstone where they are being stored then the organizer would have to make other arrangements.
 
Who'd ever think that turn in boxes could be such a big deal?

I cooked a contest once where the boxes measured at the bottom at 7.5 x 7.5. Reps said all the cooks were in the same boat, deal with it!

The shipping thing would be a nightmare. Freight folks are brutal on shipping boxes, and heavier weight means more freight cost and is really no guarantee of safe arrival of product. Besides, clamshells seem to be dropping in quality, IMO.
 
I realize that turn in boxes shouldn't be a big deal but, in Omaha at the Aksarben contest they tried the eco friendly paper based boxes and they were trash. If you build your box the night before and put it in a fridge or cooler you woke up to a spongy damp box that lost its integrity due to soaking up moisture.
That constitutes a problem. People are tired of other people ignoring what concerns them. Speaking as a member, not a candidate I am glad the contest rep and organizer in Omaha listened and took notice of the issue. Good work out of Ron and Dena Milhous and the entire Aksarben staff!
 
Leatherheadiowa said:
I agree, there are other more important concerns but, for the person that asked the question this was of some kind of importance and as a leader you have to address concerns from everyone no matter how big or small. *Being an equal opporunity listener is important. *
Your concern, my concern, and this person's concern are all different and would be prioritized differently but all deserve attention.
Having been in a situation recently where the boxes were an absolute nightmare and having written an article on BBQCRITIC.COM about it I think that the person asking the question had a point and some of the comments and emails I received after writing the article on BBQCRITIC.COM makes me believe that this is worth addressing.
As for the logistics of getting them, it isn't a big deal. *People worried about them being damaged in transport need to look at the fact that an organizer could buy them from ABC Clamshell supply in their own town, put them in their car and have a multitude of things happen to them.
Let's look at the positives that could be achieved by having them drop shipped a week prior to the contest and if the good Lord unleashes fire and brimstone where they are being stored then the organizer would have to make other arrangements.
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If nothing else, I can tell you're good at micromanaging. I'm with Candy - if the boxes are slightly smaller or larger, everyone is in the same boat. Deal with it. We've seen them smaller, larger, shallower, deeper and with funky shaped corners. We've dealt with it every time. The shape or size of the boxes has never been a factor in how well we've done or something that threw us off our game. It's part of competing - you have to learn HOW to compete, not just cook good food. You adjust if your food is lacking flavor. You adjust if over or undercooked. And you adjust if your boxes are slightly off the "norm". I'd be interested in hearing more about just what circumstances made something as simple as clamshell boxes a "nightmare" at the contest you mentioned.
 
Jeff_in_KC said:
If nothing else, I can tell you're good at micromanaging.
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I agree with part of your statement. I am good at managing. I work in healthcare and listening to my patient's is always better that telling them something. It is much harder to be a good listener and then using critical thinking skills than making assumptions and having to be reactive when your assumptions are wrong. I deal with people's lives and well being daily and every person has different issues and I don't dare lump all my patients into the same category.
In the event that I don't manage suffciently someone ends up very sick or dead.
Being a micromanger with the intent of making a positive outcome is much harder than having a macromanaging style where reaction to big issues is usually an indication it is to late to fix.
I am sorry you disagree with my style but I would guess our differing management styles would make a very positive impact on the KCBS BOD.
 
I have to agree with Jeff that having the KCBS handle distributing boxes is not a great idea. However I think this issue can be addressed with better training of reps and with Jeff's idea of an organizer training program. If we train the reps to communicate the importance of having the proper boxes to the organizer they are working with and perhaps supplying them with information on where to get the boxes I think that would solve the problem. Is getting smaller boxes at a contest the end of the world ? No but as a competitor it is annoying.
 
Leatherheadiowa said:
I agree with part of your statement. I am good at managing. I work in healthcare and listening to my patient's is always better that telling them something. It is much harder to be a good listener and then using critical thinking skills than making assumptions and having to be reactive when your assumptions are wrong. I deal with people's lives and well being daily and every person has different issues and I don't dare lump all my patients into the same category.
In the event that I don't manage suffciently someone ends up very sick or dead.
Being a micromanger with the intent of making a positive outcome is much harder than having a macromanaging style where reaction to big issues is usually an indication it is to late to fix.
I am sorry you disagree with my style but I would guess our differing management styles would make a very positive impact on the KCBS BOD.
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I thought you worked in pharmaceutical research ? Anyway I think you'll find that most decisions you would make as a BOD member would not involve life and death. At least I hope not. The biggest problem I have with KCBS distributing turn in boxes is the added cost to a contest organizer. When it's a $100,000 contest that might not be a big deal but smaller contest could be adversely affected. I know as a competitor I hate to see anything that's going to increase the cost of cooking a contest.
 
YankeeBBQ said:
I thought you worked in pharmaceutical research ?
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I do work in pharmaceutical research. I recruit and see patients in three specialty clinics here in the Des Mounes area. The clinics I work in have patient bases of nearly 7000 patients. If you happen to have Crohns Disease or IBS with constipation I have a study for you.:wink:
Back to the original issues. All boxes aren't created equal, giving organizers a list of sources to get quality boxes, and when a member has an issue no matter how large or small we respectfully listen to them and address them professionally.
I think we need to move on and get ready for another issue.:p
 
Wow, got ya'll going with that one! The main idea here was brought up and that is training for organizers. The KCBS has to do a better job at providing valuable information for the organizers. We don't have to mandate a certain manufacture of boxes but provide them with a small list of 2 or 3 that meet the requirements.

Now on to the next one, somewhere on here Candy brought up the fact that the weight of scoring the appearance has either changed or they are looking at changing due to the number of ties. I have noticed what I would consider a larger than normal number of ties lately. Gastonia had 2nd thru 6th tied for one catigorie.

The way ties are broken currently the 6th judge is not brought back in to the mix until after they have been thru the 5 judges with appearance, taste, and tenderness individually to try and break it. I have lost the tie breaker when the 6th judge was higher than the other.

Why not try the 6th judge first?
 
Tarheel said:
Wow, got ya'll going with that one! The main idea here was brought up and that is training for organizers. The KCBS has to do a better job at providing valuable information for the organizers. We don't have to mandate a certain manufacture of boxes but provide them with a small list of 2 or 3 that meet the requirements.
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I've replied and edited that because I misunderstood your post. One thing I want to see if elected is more membership involvement. What would you do if elected? I know that we made a choice to run for office, but since you've held our feet to the fire, why don't you tell us what you'd like to accomplish. Fair is far.
 
Tarheel said:
Wow, got ya'll going with that one! The main idea here was brought up and that is training for organizers. The KCBS has to do a better job at providing valuable information for the organizers. We don't have to mandate a certain manufacture of boxes but provide them with a small list of 2 or 3 that meet the requirements.

Now on to the next one, somewhere on here Candy brought up the fact that the weight of scoring the appearance has either changed or they are looking at changing due to the number of ties. I have noticed what I would consider a larger than normal number of ties lately. Gastonia had 2nd thru 6th tied for one catigorie.

The way ties are broken currently the 6th judge is not brought back in to the mix until after they have been thru the 5 judges with appearance, taste, and tenderness individually to try and break it. I have lost the tie breaker when the 6th judge was higher than the other.

Why not try the 6th judge first?
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Because judge #6 is the furthest from the norm, and most likely to be less accurate than the other five. Sometimes losing the toss is painful.

Personal evidence: I cooked Sam's Club in Austin with Two Worthless Nuts. We tied for 7th, and lost the tie breaker. Solution? We needed to cook better. I think you probably know the head cook since he was in Shelby this weekend.

A change in weighting applies to EVERYONE. As a result it's more fair to everyone since judge 6 can't taste every sample.
 
More ties are the result of two things: people cooking in the judge's ever narrowing zone more due to better education (cook's classes) and score creep. If judges really gave 6's for average and 7's for above average instead of just 8's or 9's *(OMG I can't give them a 7, it'll kill their chances, not after they spent all that money, time and effort - where's my cooler?) When judges only score on a 3 point scale you're going to get ties regardless of the weighting.

What to do? You could:

  • Change the scoring to 1/2 point intervals instead of whole numbers. (this would only be a temporary fix as the defacto scale would become 8, 8.5 & 9)
  • Define the standard of average to the judges so they have some frame of reference. (Easier said than done)
  • Add a 4th scoring criteria - Creativity. This would introduce some variance in the turn in's instead of the homogeneous identical samples we get now.
*sarcasm and satire, in case someone misses it.
 
up here, i think judges are pretty liberal with giving out 6's.

in my 3 kcbs comps, i turned in OK food in 2. finished middle of the pack.

3rd comp, re-tooled and turned in better food. finished RGC.

i personally think the system is flawed but not faulty.

i DON"T like the term average for a 6 though. the worded scoring system goes from statistical to adjective.

a 6 should be described as "satisfactory", a 9 "exemplory".

because what IS average?

i'd also suggest that tenderness is harder to nail than taste, and thus, if weighting was to be changed, it be there.
 
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