KCBS - How are we doing ?

I think improvements in judging are being looked into (comment cards). Good thing.

electonic voting, very good thing.

More feedback via forums, very good thing.

I think the area that I'd most like to see improvement is in dealing with the public at competitions. I know this is up to the organizers, but I think KCBS holds a bigger responsibility to coach the organizers. The expectations of the public need to be better set, so they know what they are going to find. I don't like disappointing people, making them upset, because I'm in the middle of my stuff but they expect free barbecue. I think better programs/procedures to educate the public would be great.

I'm not suggesting a solution, just an area I find lacking.

This is a great way to improve KCBS and the teams relations. I have thought for some time now that KCBS should actually be the member cooking teams voice with the organizers. If that were the case I think they should determine by the best and most accurate means possible if having contest to conclude on Sunday rather than Sat is what the majority of their members prefer and / or whether or not it is good for the member as a whole. If it is a KCBS ran contest the KCBS decision on Sat / Sun should not be a problem.

I am repeating myself but here goes. I went to judge the Jefferson City cook off and was made a table captain and I am wiser for it. It was the first time I got to see how everyone at my table scored and it was an eyeopener for me.

It also reinforced my idea that judges should be given the scores after judging is over. This way they can see how their scores compared to the other judges at that table, they should be able to figure out their scores, so no need to give judges numbers or what table number they were.

I believe this would help them know if they should maybe adjust there scores next time or drop out of judging, for the sake of the teams, if they are consistently way off the mark.

This would especially help new judges to become better and not leave them wondering if they did ok. And give the judges a chance to have better dialog just like teams do in an effort to better them selfs and hone ones skills.

From what I have heard around the circuit (and again, I don't know if any of this is true) is the judging. It seems there's just not enough certified judges for comps. I know for a fact at North KC Comp, someone said they were training judges the morning of the competition because they just didn't have enough. It sometimes seems the scores reflect this also. 788, 878...and so on, then you get a 455 or something and that sounds like a judge who is going off personal taste instead of using judging guidelines as if he or she just doesn't know any better. I know it has to be hard finding 20 or 30 judges for a comp but im definitely getting certified asap. I guess I would just like to see only KCBS certified judges at comps but im a realist so I know it can't always happen. I think the KCBS is doing an absolutely wonderful job though. Love you guys!

Greendriver said:

This is a great way to improve KCBS and the teams relations. I have thought for some time now that KCBS should actually be the member cooking teams voice with the organizers. If that were the case I think they should determine by the best and most accurate means possible if having contest to conclude on Sunday rather than Sat is what the majority of their members prefer and / or whether or not it is good for the member as a whole. If it is a KCBS ran contest the KCBS decision on Sat / Sun should not be a problem.

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I love this idea!!

I have often thought that we really don't need certified judges. After all we all know what we like and don't like so people off the street may be just as likely to be good judges as anyone else.

When you feed people at your house or cater you don't expect them to like the food based on a given criteria, someone has set for them, you just need to know that they liked or disliked it. Many times I have read or heard cooks say at home they like the meat falling off the bone or fork tender but at cook offs they cook differently. Hope I am not hijacking this thread.
Dave

The only thing I could really have a problem with and don't have any ideas at this point as how to fix it is lack of experienced judges/judging. I think for one KCBS should put their foot down and not allow "Celebrity Judges" unless they have attended a certification class in full at least. The 7 minute or whatever it is CD doesn't give anyone any information that will be retained to use at the judging table. (In one ear and out the other) Most people are talking BS and are not paying attention. They are just ready to eat some food. A couple of guys for instance yesterday even made comments about being there just to eat some free BBQ. Now that's just plain B.S.!
IMO a 4-6 hour class isn't enough training for someone to properly judge BBQ under KCBS criteria. I met one of the judges yesterday after the Capital City Cook-Off and he said that the BBQ there was not good at all for the most part because he likes Carolina BBQ and all this BBQ at Jefferson City was sweet. So he gave a lot of low scores cause he, "don't like sweet bbq".That really didn't set well with me! I don't have the answer for the judging problems but it needs to be looked at hard and fixed.

If your going to have only six Judges scoring product
They have to be a well trained dedicated lot. Most are


This new marketing campaign is one of the most important things we have going now.

there needs to be an traning the weekend before each contest to have an class to become CBJ

at each contest i find out if the judges are CBJ or not

I change my cooking style just on this info

and another thing that has been brought is an team name data base once your team name is entered no one can have it or get close to it
the board has to vote the name good or not to be

york

Yesterday was my first judging attempt as well as an education! I have had great exposure to BBQ and competitions. I had studied the Judge's Certification Booklet prior because I wanted to be as fair as I could about judging knowing how hard the teams work at doing competitions, the weather elements they endure, the expense they incur for competing, etc.
First off, a judge needs to have some insight to info reference judging. The CD that was played was of no benefit. People at my table were talking, hence, paying no attention to what was said. This was the first time 3 of the 6 had been judges. It is my understanding that during judging, people are not suppose to be talking, yet two newly certified judges talked non-stop; need I say this is very disruptive? The Table Captain did not attempt to control this situation but rather talked with them. Judges need insight as to how the judging process should transpire, they need the knowledge I was fortunate enough to have; not judging according to their preferences and/or they are there judging just to eat free BBQ, as two commented! This is not fair to the contestants.

Merl,
You are a brave and a good man for posting this question here.
I thank you!

I know the Brothers and Sisters will take it seriously and add constructive input and not the venom seen many times when BOD members ask or speak in public.

I am personally tickled with the direction the BOD has moved in the last couple of years. With you and folks like Jim Minion--it is really moving in the right direction.

When you scrape away all the "fluff" and emotion about "how things used to be", KCBS is on the verge of a great future with expansion and diversification.

The one underlying source of discontent is the Judging system.
The judging system has been modified a bit, but still has a long way to go.
I suggested to Jim Minion last fall that we are just "tweaking" and may be running into "paradigms" and not breaking them.
Basically, a small change leaves the judges using "the way we have always done it" and creates conflicts with new judges who do not have any old habits to break.
The classic solution to a paradigm is to totally change the system to break the old processes and the old thinking.
Painful, but works.

Anyway--too many words for a Sunday Night!

You all are doing a great job!

TIM

Merl, thanks for asking us! Your sincerety in your position is greatly appreciated. I too believe the biggest problem KCBS faces is the judging. I did not hear the comments Jim did but had I heard them, it would have been nearly impossible for me to refrain from telling that judge what I thought of his opinions. We had a sponsor to offset a portion of our expenses but we spent over $500 on this event (entry, meat, sponsor dinner, supplies, meals, propane and gasoline). It would be nice if we had judges who cared and gave a us a fair assessment. Ban coolers and removal of BBQ from the judging area! Get rid of celebrities and politcal figures as judges unless they become trained with more than a CD minutes before the comp. I also like the idea of judges seeing how everyone scored entries and those who are consistently off the mark should not be allowed to judge.

Other than that, I think the KCBS Web site should be completely redesigned. Make it more user friendly and USEFUL. Add sections for articles, contest reviews, photos, etc. Maybe put a lot of the Bullsheet features online such as recipe exchanges, etc. How about a place for cooks to go to submit contest reviews and rate different aspects of the contest? A drop down men to choose a contest takes a cook to a questionaire on that event. Results are tallied and posted to the board for all to see... including sponsors who do a chitty job and wonder why people aren't returning to their events. It could be a cool database for teams to look at and use in deciding their upcoming season's schedule.

River City Smokehouse said:

I met one of the judges yesterday after the Capital City Cook-Off and he said that the BBQ there was not good at all for the most part because he likes Carolina BBQ and all this BBQ at Jefferson City was sweet. So he gave a lot of low scores cause he, "don't like sweet bbq".That really didn't set well with me!

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When I see that an event is "KCBS" sanctioned, I ASSUME that we are cooking to Kansas City style BBQ parameters. (The sauce is IT carried by the finely smoked meats.)

I even modified a family traditional, perfectly acceptable, Carolina style sauce to match the KC style for the Osage City competition just because it was a KCBS sanctioned event. To think that it may have been judged better at a KCBS event in its native configuration would be . . . well . . . unthinkable.

Greendriver said:

This is a great way to improve KCBS and the teams relations. I have thought for some time now that KCBS should actually be the member cooking teams voice with the organizers. If that were the case I think they should determine by the best and most accurate means possible if having contest to conclude on Sunday rather than Sat is what the majority of their members prefer and / or whether or not it is good for the member as a whole. If it is a KCBS ran contest the KCBS decision on Sat / Sun should not be a problem.

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BadBoysBBQ said:

I love this idea!!

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I'm not sure what this means. I've read it twice.

QansasjayhawQ said:

When I see that an event is "KCBS" sanctioned, I ASSUME that we are cooking to Kansas City style BBQ parameters. (The sauce is IT carried by the finely smoked meats.)

I even modified a family traditional, perfectly acceptable, Carolina style sauce to match the KC style for the Osage City competition just because it was a KCBS sanctioned event. To think that it may have been judged better at a KCBS event in its native configuration would be . . . well . . . unthinkable.

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Nothing about KCBS is about a particular style of BBQ. It makes sense that BBQ will be judged differently in different regions of the country, but nothing in the rules, bylaws or structure implies that it should be judged "KC style".

Is your point that it should be called something other than KC BBQ Society?

Todd - I thought the same thing until I re-read... I think Greendriver is saying that the KCBS should represent the teams, and if the teams overwhelmingly prefer Sunday turn in's (which may or may not be true depending what part of the country you live in or what your work schedule and vacation time are like), then the KCBS should be able to dictate to the organizer that Sunday must be turn in day...I don't agree with this as no one if forced to enter any contest. If Sat turn in's are truly the favorite, they will always exist.



Good Luck Merl - Judging will get a ton of feedback to your question especially if the quality of judges cannot keep up with the desire of organizers and cooks to hold more contests or bigger contests..

What might help is if the KCBS worked on finding ways to have cooks who are certified or get cooks to become certified to judge more frequently. Some cooks do a very good job of this but I think more of us (including me) need to make a better effort to find at least one or two contests per year to judge rather than cook or be a spectator.

I would also like to see a more formalized monthly communication in the Bullsheet and online from the KCBS president as to the "state of affairs", update etc.

I like Jeff's idea for cooks to have the ability to the quality of a contest in select areas. This coulh however bring out the bad in those who just want to complain.

Hi,

I feel a bit odd posting, as I'm not yet a member of the KCBS, a certified judge or competitor, but if you wouldn't mind a suggestion from someone who has event management experience and is an avid fan, here is my opinion:

Keep the celebrity judges, keep the political figures and local representatives but create a special, small category that they are allowed to vote in. Call it 'peoples choice' or something and give out a small plaque or award.

As someone who has helped to run hundreds of events, some with over 30,000 attendees, I can assure you that celebrities help the cause of the event itself. But nothing is harmed by limiting their span of input.

Thanks,

Eric

Merl said:

Dear Brethren,
This is a serious inquiry.
We have had elections, and have a new board. For KCBS this is the new year and the new season. Last year we added corrected the by-laws, added electronic voting, created new contest critique sheets, which provide more information to us, and have begun to test new judging slips and cooks comment cards.

So that was last year. What I want to know is what are we doing a good job at, and what do we need to improve. I am looking for serious comments, please. This is your opportunity to have input to KCBS. I will take your ideas to the new ideas committee and see if we go forward with your thoughts.

Thank you.
Merl Whitebook

New Ideas Committee
KCBS Board of Directors
mwhitebook at kcbs.us

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I have respect for the team member who is relaying this message. It was posted on another fourm, he is a brethren, and I hope he will not mind me using this but I too am pissed like him.

"I did have 2 judges visit my spot after judging was over at the Autry . I said hi and asked how things turned out that day. One said... quote: "Someone had the nerve to turn in babyback ribs"...and the other agreed. I said what's wrong with that? Judge said " I didn't count down on it because of that.". Yeah, right. So why are you telling me that? My guess would be that you did somewhere down the line. I said I hope you don't count down because of that, that's legal meat. A lot of teams turn in baby backs! Judge said "I prefer spareribs" Subject was changed real quick and I stared into space with my mouth open and wondered what the hell they're teaching these people these days. I don't turn in babybacks and I was pissed that I had heard this. What the hell is that all about! I hope these guys read this Forum and will answer for themselves.
Please, I wish all judges would have to cook in contests to understand what it takes to even PLACE!"

Merl, if KCBS wants to do something for ME, get a dialog going concerning continuing education for CBJ's. Why is it that Master judges have to cook with a team every two years but CBJ's do not? Comments like this make me understand why I came in 25th in ribs at a contest I turned BABYBACKS in at. I have never finished lower than 15th in ribs in my life! I took 1st in ribs at my very 1st contest, I know how to cook ribs!

You want my serious input, here it is.

For the Judging aspect and new judges, I would recommend a mentoring process.

When I went to my Judging class, I met TheKapn there and made alot of new friends. The class had alot of people there who were Judge certified from other organizing events(FBA, MIM, etc) and they noticed how I had been scoring during my class. They talked to me about it and explained things to me that made more sense after having had the class. Had it not been for them, I would have judged alot lower during the event and probably caused some very low scores for teams unintentionally. I know they try to put new judges on tables with older, more experienced judges but that's during the contest and by then, it's too late. Possibly asking for a few judges to come to the class to "captian" the tables during the class and review the scores with the students during the class. Not in a manor of ganging up on them but to understand their reasoning for scoring.

Also, you do find some people, yes they are out there, whose only goal in life is to DQ someone or something. Those types need to be weeded out and asked to step aside and leave.

I'm not a competitor yet, and I've only ever judged one contest but that is what I have taken away from the contests and events I have been to and listened to alot of the competitors talk about scores and seen alot of them with 888, 899, 898, 444, 999 and you have to wonder if it was a new judge or a person on a power trip? I also think to myslef that had I not had the experience of others to guide me through my first judging, I would have been the one at the table giving that person who deserved 8's and 9's, 6's, 7's and 8's. Simply becuase I didn't know any better at the time.