Yoder Wichita: My solution to its airflow/drafting issues

[bbqpitsmoker]

Originally Posted by ebijack

You could have a piece of metal cut to fit the opening, same thickness. Then welded into the opening instead of a whole new wheel. Welded from the inside, you shouldn't even notice it once done. Just a thought.

Thats a really good idea. I may end up doing exactly that. thanks!

[IXL]

Originally Posted by bbqpitsmoker

Glad to be any help I can be, however if you are looking for an air intake to use for inspiration (copy) I would suggest/plead/beg you not to copy that of the Wichita. From all accounts the horizon 20” pit has virtually identical dimensions and the air intake damper actually works without being modified. Personally though my favourite air intake is on the LSG offsets. It is a common sense design and mechanism and sits so low down on the firebox that it would really help to promote a natural draft.

The Horizon fire box is lower in relation to the cook chamber, than on the Yoder. On top of that, the Horizon intake vents are lower on the fire box than on the Yoder's. Together, these differences make for a great natural-draft smoker, a draft than can practically be started with nothing more than a kitchen match.

I believe Slamkeys has pretty much proven that lowering the intake, enough, on the Yoder product will result in sufficient draft; it's just sad that one would have to do so.

[slamkeys]

G'day bbqpitsmoker! How ya goin? (in my best Aussie accent)

I didn't notice your new thread pop up. I've seen your fire basket thread and agree it's tough to keep the coals where you want them with the factory grate. I still need to give your solution a whirl to see if it works better than what I'm doing now. I normally have 2 grates stacked together to keep the coals from falling through, but I still have trouble keeping the coals confined to a small space when I push the logs around.

Your basket solution might be the most efficient way to keep a small hot fire going with the least amount of effort and fuel. However, I've been pondering some of the things Joe Phillips said lately about intentionally generating smoke for flavor, and it's caused me to wonder if my fires are burning so cleanly now that I might be sacrificing flavor while focusing on how clean my fires are. Does that make sense? I've had some cooks when things were working so well I basically had no smoke for 90% of the cook, and that could be more like cooking with pure charcoal than cooking with splits.

The smoke stack mod is interesting, and several people suggested I try using a larger one too (either bigger diameter ala Jambo, or longer). At the beginning, I relied on Feldon's calculator to see if it agreed with the design decisions used for the Wichita, and was surprised that it did indeed come very close. Joe Phillips wouldn't admit to using it as a basis for their designs, as if they are using some old family tradition to design their pits, but I believe they are using it to some extent.

Anyway, from what I remember the Feldon calculator said a cooker the size of a Wichita with a 4" smoke stack required a length of 26" or so, and my Wichita smoke stack was 20" vertically and 6" horizontally, which was basically spot on. This is why I never messed with the smoke stack. I'm curious to see what kind of smoke stack Aaron Franklin puts on his new backyard smokers when they release next year, because he likes large-diameter stacks.

I believe the heat management plate, coupled with the high firebox mount position, is the main culprit here because the original Wichita smokers didn't have one (see this post: http://community.yodersmokers.com/vi...p?p=8960#p8960). Did you completely stop using it? Coincidentally, I attempted a cook this past weekend without the heat management plate, and I simply could not get the temperatures below 300F on the cool side and 350F on the hot side with the plate removed. Maybe you are able to control your temps better using the fire basket because you can maintain a much smaller fire that way. I think the biggest problem with not using the heat management plate is the heat goes straight to the top of the smoker and out the smoke stack, leaving the bottom of the cooker much cooler, and preventing much of the smoke from contacting the food when it's on the main cooking grate. Aaron Franklin intentionally mounts his smoke stacks at grate level for this very reason, because he believes it forces the smoke to flow right over the meat. It's all theory though, so who's to say which theory is right or wrong - whatever works is the right way.

One thing Joe Phillips said in defense of his high fire box mounting position is that he intentionally mounts the firebox one inch above the center line of the main cooker in order to create the maximum opening between the chambers. Well, I'm not sure why that is necessary, especially if you're going to block it all off with steel plates anyway:

[bbqpitsmoker]

Originally Posted by slamkeys

G'day bbqpitsmoker! How ya goin? (in my best Aussie accent)

I didn't notice your new thread pop up. I've seen your fire basket thread and agree it's tough to keep the coals where you want them with the factory grate. I still need to give your solution a whirl to see if it works better than what I'm doing now. I normally have 2 grates stacked together to keep the coals from falling through, but I still have trouble keeping the coals confined to a small space when I push the logs around.

Your basket solution might be the most efficient way to keep a small hot fire going with the least amount of effort and fuel. However, I've been pondering some of the things Joe Phillips said lately about intentionally generating smoke for flavor, and it's caused me to wonder if my fires are burning so cleanly now that I might be sacrificing flavour while focusing on how clean my fires are. Does that make sense? I've had some cooks when things were working so well I basically had no smoke for 90% of the cook, and that could be more like cooking with pure charcoal than cooking with splits.

The smoke stack mod is interesting, and several people suggested I try using a larger one too (either bigger diameter ala Jambo, or longer). At the beginning, I relied on Feldon's calculator to see if it agreed with the design decisions used for the Wichita, and was surprised that it did indeed come very close. Joe Phillips wouldn't admit to using it as a basis for their designs, as if they are using some old family tradition to design their pits, but I believe they are using it to some extent.

Anyway, from what I remember the Feldon calculator said a cooker the size of a Wichita with a 4" smoke stack required a length of 26" or so, and my Wichita smoke stack was 20" vertically and 6" horizontally, which was basically spot on. This is why I never messed with the smoke stack. I'm curious to see what kind of smoke stack Aaron Franklin puts on his new backyard smokers when they release next year, because he likes large-diameter stacks.

I believe the heat management plate, coupled with the high firebox mount position, is the main culprit here because the original Wichita smokers didn't have one (see this post: http://community.yodersmokers.com/vi...p?p=8960#p8960). Did you completely stop using it? Coincidentally, I attempted a cook this past weekend without the heat management plate, and I simply could not get the temperatures below 300F on the cool side and 350F on the hot side with the plate removed. Maybe you are able to control your temps better using the fire basket because you can maintain a much smaller fire that way. I think the biggest problem with not using the heat management plate is the heat goes straight to the top of the smoker and out the smoke stack, leaving the bottom of the cooker much cooler, and preventing much of the smoke from contacting the food when it's on the main cooking grate. Aaron Franklin intentionally mounts his smoke stacks at grate level for this very reason, because he believes it forces the smoke to flow right over the meat. It's all theory though, so who's to say which theory is right or wrong - whatever works is the right way.

One thing Joe Phillips said in defense of his high fire box mounting position is that he intentionally mounts the firebox one inch above the center line of the main cooker in order to create the maximum opening between the chambers. Well, I'm not sure why that is necessary, especially if you're going to block it all off with steel plates anyway:

Hi Slamkeys,

Feel grateful for your expert opinion in my humble thread....

1. Re smoke being too clean, I would never ever worry about that. As long as I am cooking with wood and not just a charcoal base, my goal is the cleanest stack possible, and the flavour takes care of itself. There is no rule that says that the delicious by product of combustion must be visible in smoke; in fact some of my tastiest results have been from a cook that maintained shimmering vapour - the shimmering vapour is definitely not just air and has considerable deliciousness from the log combustion in it which produces a very different result from using just charcoal.

Here is a recent Brisket cook that I did with a very clean stack. It tasted great but I threw out the whole 15 pound brisket in the trash because of the obviously undercooked area on the edge of each slice.....

[IMG][/IMG]

2. Yes - have completely stopped using the HMP

3. Re temp - The cooker in its current configuration definitely likes to run at a higher temp. I would say that average cruising temp with a small pile of coal from splits that have burned down, and a fresh split on top would be around 300F on the left side temp gauge. One thing I will say is that there is a big difference between the gauge temp and grate temp because I agree with you that the airflow runs higher in the cook chamber so a 300F temp gauge reading might relate to 250F at the main grate a few inches below so I use the gauge reading as a relative measure of what the grate temp would be rather than an an exact measurement. I only use the main grate (don't like the radiant heat from the top of the cook chamber drying out the food on the 2nd level grate that would sit closely to the top of the cook chamber). For any cooks where I want more precision I use a thermoworks Smoke at grate level.

4. Re: Chimney, the stack size increase makes a massive improvement. I would encourage anyone with this pit to do it. From seeing the vapour exit from the top of it you would think there was a guru pushing air through the pit, but there isn't. Its just the air draft, but its not just a gradual leak of smoke it works more like a Jambo or similar, it MOVES that air which is taken from just the bottom half of the original air intake.

[slamkeys]

This was my last brisket with the heat management plate installed. Big smoke ring, fully rendered fat on the point, and some amazing burnt ends from the Plowboys Bovine Bold rub. I've been using butcher paper to wrap after I hit the stall, then pulling off when the temperature gets between 200-203 before moving to a cooler to rest for a couple of hours before I serve. I might do another one tomorrow since the weather is supposed to be nice.

[Notorious Q.U.E.]

IXL, I agree horizon has some gorgeous machines

Slamkeys, glad you got the Wichita to hum like a top. Just hope Yoder ups its game

[bbqpitsmoker]

I literally think that once Yoder has actually fixed the design the very least they could do is send a newly built pit to Slamkeys as a gift to say thanks for all the free R&D he has done for them....

[Notorious Q.U.E.]

Originally Posted by bbqpitsmoker

I literally think that once Yoder has actually fixed the design the very least they could do is send a newly built pit to Slamkeys as a gift to say thanks for all the free R&D he has done for them....

Seriously, a consultant fee is in order. Slamkeys has done more thinking on this topic than the Yoder people themselves. I've read some responses and it's like Yoder was trying harder to block the info than actually fixing the underlying problem

[funstuie]

Originally Posted by bbqpitsmoker

I am a Yoder Wichita customer, and have regularly experienced a range of issues related to how the pit drafts with symptoms including:

1. Smoke flowing backwards out of firebox intake damper instead of out of the stack

2. Inability to close the firebox door and maintain thin blue smoke out of the stack - within seconds of closing the door I typically get thick white smoke

3. Excessive fuel usage - The only option to achieve reasonable combustion and smoke quality has been to leave the firebox door open, and this approach wastes a lot of fuel via heat loss through the open firebox door.

4. The pit is in no way relaxing to use. Because of the insufficient draft the fire will regularly smoulder and even go out, which leaves soot on the food. I had regularly needed to come back every 15 mins or so to shift logs around to get them to burn, and occasionally even re-light a fire with kindling when the fire went out.

5. At times when the firebox door was left open to achieve combustion and the fire burned the logs down to coals, the large gaps in the expanded steel grate allows the coals to fall through the grate to the bottom of the firebox, and more than once I came back to a pit that was still reading a temp of 250F and upon opening the firebox found an empty charcoal grate with all the coals fallen through and then needed to build the fire again mid cook.


Similar to a few other forum members I decided to take on the challenge of trying to get the pit working the way I wanted it to, and am sharing my solution in the hope that it helps other Wichita customers be happier with their pit. Credit goes to the significant research done by Slamkeys - this research helped shape my thinking and approach here.


My goals/constraints for the modifications were:

1. The modifications need to be easily reversible in case I decide to sell the pit
2. No interest in cutting into the pit based on goal 1, but also in case the modification didn't work and I didn't want to be left in a worse position than I am now with an expensive pit.
3. I initially started off trying to get the pit working with the heat management plate installed but gave up. I found it limited the airflow too much, and to get the pit drafting to my liking would probably require cutting a new firebox air intake per Slamkeys approach previously posted here.
4. Conscious that one valid outcome is selling this pit and buying a different brand, so any solution needed to be cheap in terms of $ and also my time.
5. Didn't want to have to arrange for the pit to leave my house.


Modifications:

1. Completely block the upper firebox damper with a small flat piece of stainless steel sheet balanced between the door latch and the damper adjustment handle. This upper damper hole is far too high, and significantly contributes to the drafting issues.

2. Use the existing charcoal grate as a platform, for an additional surface to prevent coal prematurely falling through to the firebox floor. I initially used a sheet of perforated (not expanded) steel with something like quarter inch round holes evenly spaced throughout it, and after seeing how much of a positive difference it made I ended up having a charcoal basket fabricated that had a similar base to it. I use the basket for all fuels including log splits as well as charcoal. As well as the smaller holes on the base of the basket stopping coal falling through to prematurely lose the coal bed, the basket runs only half the width of the firebox so it helps me with the goal of running a small hot fire, as well as leaving room next to the basket to pre-heat splits (I have tried running cold splits as well and worked fine).

3. Replaced the chimney stack - A great feature of the Wichita is that the chimney stack is removable without any tools - it literally slides out. I did a bunch of research on drafting in smoker pits as well as wood burning stoves, and the thing that I saw again and again was people referring to the stack as the piece of the puzzle that generates the draft. Can't recall where but someone referred to the stack as the engine that pulls the air through the pit. I measured the stack as being approx 4" diameter, and 20" long, so had a replacement stack fabricated at 4" diameter and 40" long to 'increase the engine horsepower'.


The modifications listed above have left me significantly happier with the pit. I have used it in high wind blowing in various directions, and the smoke flows out the stack and doesn't reverse direction. The fuel burns steadily and at a slower rate. I easily achieve thin blue smoke and even shimmering vapor with the firebox door shut (and even remembering that the top intake damper is blocked), and can leave the pit for far longer without babysitting.

I previously had to start the pit with 2 charcoal baskets to achieve reasonable performance, and now I can start the pit without any charcoal at all.

My most recent fire lighting workflow in a car analogy was a standing start quarter mile sprint to see how hot I could quickly get it and maintain thin blue smoke:

No charcoal. Stacked a few small pieces of kindling with about 5 coke can width splits in the shape of a # above the kindling. Firebox door shut with top damper hole blocked. Lit the kindling and shut the top lid to the firebox. Within 25 minutes the pit went from ambient temperature to 350f on the temp gauge on the left of the firebox with a roaring fire and thin blue smoke out the stack.

Any chance you can post some pics?

I have been struggling in a similar fashion to you with my wichita and like you I don't want to mod it too much as I may just sell it on. I don't use it much as it's a pain in the balls to manage a fire over night.

[slamkeys]

I know the factory fire grate on my Wichita has never worked well for me, and I normally supplement it with a second grate to prevent the coals from falling through so easily.

I've been researching Shirley Fabrication for a while now, and I noticed Paul makes a nice big fire basket for his smokers, with an overlapped bottom section that has very small openings due to rotating the expanded metal 90 degrees.


I've never heard any complaints about the Shirley fire grates keeping the fire together. I mention this because your fire basket solution solves the Yoder fire grate issue in much the same way, by creating a denser platform for the coals to rest upon, which prevents them from falling through when you add more splits. In addition, since your fire basket is so narrow the wood gets piled up much like a chimney starter, and probably burns hotter because of the silo effect.

[Notorious Q.U.E.]

I can vouch for how well-designed my Shirley fire grate basket truly is. It sort of takes care of itself and I love it for that. I've had COS grates that were unable to perform. This thing is a beast and probably weighs a good 30 pounds. You won't be disappointed in the Shirley basket !!

BTW, if you got a Shirley (30x80 Straightback would do) shipped to Australia, you would be the baddest MoFo in the Southern Hemisphere!!!

[slamkeys]

Originally Posted by Notorious Q.U.E.

IXL, I agree horizon has some gorgeous machines

Slamkeys, glad you got the Wichita to hum like a top. Just hope Yoder ups its game

I think the verdict is still out on whether my modifications improved the final product or not. I certainly have good air flow now, but I struggle to keep the meat from drying out, even with a water pan. I've been spritzing like crazy to try and keep the surface wet, but in the end if I don't wrap early the hot side always gets pretty crispy.

I've been thinking about doing one of those exhaust mods where you put an elbow inside the cooking chamber to lower it down to grate level (after removing the top shelf) to see if I can keep the heat in the cooking chamber longer with a slightly reduced escape velocity. I've seen videos where briskets are cooked completely without wrapping and still come out dripping wet, but I've never been able to accomplish anything like that on the Wichita. Of course, since the Yoder is supposed to be a bottom-up cooker I always put the fat cap down, so that may be why my top side dries out because it never has much fat on it. I normally use the cheapest select packers too, so there's that.

I may just have to revert back to focusing on a larger coal bed and choked down intake to slow down the air flow enough to prevent drying out the food. That's my theory anyway. High velocity air flow + open flames = too much drying.

Then again, why do I keep experimenting with this thing? I should move on.

[SmoothBoarBBQ]

Originally Posted by slamkeys

I think the verdict is still out on whether my modifications improved the final product or not. I certainly have good air flow now, but I struggle to keep the meat from drying out, even with a water pan. I've been spritzing like crazy to try and keep the surface wet, but in the end if I don't wrap early the hot side always gets pretty crispy.

I've been thinking about doing one of those exhaust mods where you put an elbow inside the cooking chamber to lower it down to grate level (after removing the top shelf) to see if I can keep the heat in the cooking chamber longer with a slightly reduced escape velocity. I've seen videos where briskets are cooked completely without wrapping and still come out dripping wet, but I've never been able to accomplish anything like that on the Wichita. Of course, since the Yoder is supposed to be a bottom-up cooker I always put the fat cap down, so that may be why my top side dries out because it never has much fat on it. I normally use the cheapest select packers too, so there's that.

I may just have to revert back to focusing on a larger coal bed and choked down intake to slow down the air flow enough to prevent drying out the food. That's my theory anyway. High velocity air flow + open flames = too much drying.

Then again, why do I keep experimenting with this thing? I should move on.

Agreed... unless you're a "tinkerer" at heart there's no reason to keep on trying to make the Yoder work the way you want it to. TONS of great smokers out there which work much more efficiently and are priced very reasonably.

You brought up brisket and I used to trim my briskets pretty aggressively, but they were often a bit dry. So one day I took a full packer out of the cryo-vac, trimmed about 1/4 of a pound, and tossed it on my smoker with a salt/pepper rub and never touched it. I didn't open the door, didn't spritz, etc and just let it ride at about 250-275° until I got to about 198° internal and it was the best brisket I had ever done. That might be something to try and see if works out for you... I have completely gone away from wrapping or spritzing anything and I feel I have a better flavor and texture all around by doing so. Mind you, as you said, I couldn't leave things unwrapped in my Yoder, but with my Johnson Smoker the airflow is perfect and the smoke is thin / blue at all times, so it's not a problem.

Good luck with whatever you choose to do.

[JokerBroker]

Originally Posted by slamkeys

I normally use the cheapest select packers too, so there's that.

Then again, why do I keep experimenting with this thing? I should move on.

Raising the grade of meat you buy could save you a lot of money if it curtails your desire for a new offset. Regarding too much air flow, a 20" diameter offset will inherently produce higher airflow speeds than a 24", assuming all other things are equal.

[bbqpitsmoker]

Had a few requests for photos so here is the stack, basket and the way I am blocking the door vent