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Competition BBQ *On Topic Only* Discussion regarding all aspects of Competition BBQ. Experiences competing or visiting, questions, getting started, Equipment, announcements of events, Results, Reviews, Planning, etc. Questions here will be responded to with competition BBQ in mind. |
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09-06-2012, 11:03 PM | #46 |
is Blowin Smoke!
Join Date: 09-18-11
Location: Smithville, Missouri, United States
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Like it a lot. Not sure I see the value in knowing the number vs. the blind number however. Seems like overkill to me. What value does that really provide?
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Greg Vincent When I die, my goal is to have a visible smoke ring when the coroner cuts me open for the autopsy. |
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09-07-2012, 08:19 AM | #47 | |
Got Wood.
Join Date: 12-16-10
Location: Phoenix,az
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1. Turn in hits the turn in table and is placed in the tray along with whatever number of clams that table will be judging which could be anywhere from 5 to as high as 8 (that I've seen) depending on how many judges are on site. 2.The numbers are changed from team number to KCBS number using whatever "factor" was generated for that contest. 3.Most times it is double checked for accuracy. 4.The tray is brought inside or set on a TC table right inside the tent depending on the configuration of the tent and how many TC's there are. 5.The TC's then check the box #'s for boxes that have hit their table before and swap out with other TC's if there are any repeats. 6. TC's then carry the tray to the table and start the judging process. |
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09-07-2012, 08:52 AM | #48 | |
is Blowin Smoke!
Join Date: 09-18-11
Location: Smithville, Missouri, United States
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The smaller group is testing a new system from a tactical standpoint after the BOD set the strategy that they may need to look at improving the scoring system. If it works, they can bring it the entire BOD for approval and full adoption then. If there is no beta test, how can the BOD have any data to support their decision either way.
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Greg Vincent When I die, my goal is to have a visible smoke ring when the coroner cuts me open for the autopsy. |
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09-07-2012, 10:14 AM | #49 | |
somebody shut me the fark up.
Join Date: 01-23-04
Location: DFW, San AntonioTx
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If a system that moves judges based on how they score a category, in comparison to others at the same table, you are looking at additional issues. Once you start singling judges out based on their scores you are likely to see a change in the way they score, and there is no guarantee that it will be a reasonable correction. If a judge has been a point low, how does anyone know that they won't start scoring two points higher to avoid being singled out and moved to another table in front of their peers? The new software can become a very powerful tool. With power comes responsibility. It will take some time to really find out what the data says. Some trends are likely to become very evident early on, and some of those trends may change dramatically over time as the data gathered grows to proved a more complete and accurate view of what is actually happening. There are also risks associated with telling a judge how far outside the norm they are without sufficient data. Being an outlier one day may indicate that 5 other people were off that day, if over time that outlier is more consistent than those other 5 judges. If we create a system where judges adjust their scoring from week to week, the data and system will suffer. My personal opinion is that the responsible thing to do is take a look at a reasonable data set, see what can be learned from it, and then assess the options available to improve the system. My .02
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You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline - it helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear weapons, but at the very least you need a beer. --Frank Zappa Keeping Valspar in BBQ, one cook at a time. Recipient of a Huggies box! Shut up, and cook!!!! |
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09-07-2012, 10:50 AM | #50 | |
is one Smokin' Farker
Join Date: 12-11-09
Location: Marshall MO
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WSM 22.5, MCBJ, In The Key Of Que |
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09-07-2012, 02:35 PM | #51 | |
is Blowin Smoke!
Join Date: 08-08-07
Location: Cartersville, GA
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1) Numbers are changed first. Usually multiple people are involved to avoid delays and double check for errors. 2) Turn-in personnel sort the boxes into the trays, referring to the checkoff list the Table Captain brought back after the last category to avoid placing the any box number on a table twice. (If it's the first category, boxes are sorted randomly.) 3) TC retrieves their tray along with the checkoff list. They cross off each box in the tray from the list. If any repeats are encountered, they confer with the Rep to see if a swap is warranted. (sometimes due to low team counts, etc. a repeat is unavoidable) 4) TC presents the boxes to judges for scoring. 5) When all score cards are turned in to the Rep, TC returns the tray with the checkoff list to the turn-in table for the next category. |
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Thanks from:---> |
09-07-2012, 02:39 PM | #52 |
is Blowin Smoke!
Join Date: 08-08-07
Location: Cartersville, GA
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Almost forgot:
I do have one big problem with the beta scoring sheets. The alternate number should never be listed, as this breaks the blind. If you cross reference the alternate number to team names like that, then you will have teams and judges comparing notes on entries between judging and awards. If you are going to do that, you may as well forget renumbering completely. |
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Thanks from: ---> |
09-07-2012, 03:20 PM | #53 | |
On the road to being a farker
Join Date: 05-06-12
Location: Olathe, KS
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In all the contests I have judged or TC'ed the TC's receive the boxes and check to make sure that their table has not received a box from that team before. I have only heard of one pair of reps that do the duplicate checking/re-ordering. I usually do one or two contests a month. I will admit that even though I try to maintain consistent standards, my judging can vary from contest to contest. Some contests I may judge "harder" than others depending on my mood. Judging for appearance and tenderness allow for the most objectiveness. Does a box look good, is the meat presented neatly, does the rib meat come off the bone cleanly, can you pull the brisket apart or is it a rubber band, is the pork mushy, etc. etc. Taste is almost purely subjective. How can you train someone what good BBQ should taste like? If you can come up with a consensus about what good BBQ should taste like I'll do my best to apply it when I judge. |
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09-07-2012, 03:37 PM | #54 |
is one Smokin' Farker
Join Date: 09-23-09
Location: Eau Claire WI (finally)
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As a Judge and Table Captain I've seen the luck and had a few discussions with other judges/TC. Sometimes you have a hot a table because your table 'lucked' out and got a string of contenders. One contest this summer had the best string of ribs that I could recall and another contest ribs were politely described as dismal.
Perhaps a better example. Sam's club we had 5 of 6 pork just money muscle only. Two other judges (different tables) I remarked about it too said there's were more 'standard' pulled pork and little to no money muscle. Not saying Miron Mixon is right that you need money muscle to win. Butt I thinks some cooks have really bought in to it. As a TC I was told I'm the Rep's rep. If my table has wide swings in scores I bring it to their attention and the judges are monitored a little closer to see it a trend is there that is not supported by the rest of the table. They don't tell them what to score but remind them of HOW to score.
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Phil UDS, Weber Kettle, #5 Kamado refurbished 'the Copper top' [COLOR="navy"]Blue 'like my Smoke' Thermapen[/COLOR] IMBAS certified MOINK! baller, KCBS MCBJ & CTC |
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09-07-2012, 03:51 PM | #55 | |
is One Chatty Farker
Join Date: 08-27-07
Location: Eustis, FL
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KCBS Member Smoke-N-My-I's Competition BBQ Team 2 Chargriller SuperPros with SFB's(retired) 2 UGLY drum smokers Weber 22 1/2" & 18 1/2" Kettle Super fast RED Thermapen Screaming fast ORANGE Thermapen KCBS Certified Table Captain KCBS Certified Judge |
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09-07-2012, 03:54 PM | #56 | |
somebody shut me the fark up.
Join Date: 01-23-04
Location: DFW, San AntonioTx
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Quote:
__________________
You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline - it helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear weapons, but at the very least you need a beer. --Frank Zappa Keeping Valspar in BBQ, one cook at a time. Recipient of a Huggies box! Shut up, and cook!!!! |
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09-07-2012, 03:56 PM | #57 |
is one Smokin' Farker
Join Date: 09-23-09
Location: Eau Claire WI (finally)
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Yeah that's what I thought I said too
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Phil UDS, Weber Kettle, #5 Kamado refurbished 'the Copper top' [COLOR="navy"]Blue 'like my Smoke' Thermapen[/COLOR] IMBAS certified MOINK! baller, KCBS MCBJ & CTC |
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09-07-2012, 04:43 PM | #58 |
Full Fledged Farker
Join Date: 04-16-09
Location: Maple Valley, WA
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In theory (okay, the theory in my mind on this one), the issue will be addressed in the seating of judges at the beginning of a contest. If they are able to track high judges, low judges, etc., for the experienced judges at a contest, each table should be "balanced" prior to seating the judges. This will take away allowing a judge to sit where they please, however, it would put the tables on an even keel for the known judges. To me, this will become where the evening out is.
This will still allow for the new or inexperienced judges to be wild cards. But if we can get 4 of the 6 on average down to a known balance, we "should" see more consistent judging across the tables going forward. I'd much rather compete knowing that the average scores on most of the judges is balanced and taking a shot at 1-2 wild cards vs. a table of who knows what. And as a side note, I'm still willing to bet we'll see the historically strong teams still be strong. It just could help level out some of the playing field.
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Border War Smokers - "BBQ worth killin' your neighbor for" |
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09-07-2012, 05:43 PM | #59 |
Got Wood.
Join Date: 12-16-10
Location: Phoenix,az
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It'll be interesting to see how the data plays out over time, especially when up until recently there were some (what I consider) wide swings in what judges were told about scoring when in training class and at some events.
This brings up a question for y'all, is a judge who's considered a hard or low scorer incorrect or following what he/she was taught just like the easy/high scoring judge is doing. The reason I ask this is as many people know for a while (at least out here in the west) judges were instructed to basically not score below a 5/6 unless it's completely and totally inedible. The reason given was "it would be an insult after all the hard work and money that the teams put in to get to the judges tent with an entry". Given that instruction wouldn't or couldn't that cause a certain section of judges to automatically score higher and the judges that had not heard that instruction actually use the full 2-9 system meaning they could be scoring consistently lower? I'd suggest that regional data sampling would probably be a good idea. I'd almost bet that you'd see the data swing from one region to another and most likely from one category to another like chicken being scored harder than let's say beef in TX or beef harder than pork in TN. Just thinking about regional tastes is all and no, I will NOT give an example of how the West Coast would score since KCBS doesn't have a "Tofurkey" category. |
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09-07-2012, 06:29 PM | #60 |
Got Wood.
Join Date: 09-21-11
Location: Henderson,KY
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ultimately the only way to resolve this in which i have no idea how to do it and im sure nobody else does is: when our boxes go to a table we are competing against those six boxes. To show who is truly the best is to let each judge taste 40 pieces of chicken, ribs, pork, and brisket. Then you will really know who is the best. But dang, i would get full plus i would forget what the other 39 pieces tasted like, but hey that could be a good thing. Who knows, i just like being able to be there even if we don't win. I mean there is nothing like having stories to tell after a comp...like just by chance your trailer flips and the cooker door is open and 3 of your 4 slabs of ribs fall on the ground or maybe just maybe fall into the soapy sink. Im just saying, not that happened or nothing. LOL
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