Adam Perry Lang's theory on wrapping

[Bbq Bubba]

Originally Posted by Saiko

I'm wanting to hear Popdaddy chime in here. At least I think I am.

Be careful what you ask for.

[WineMaster]

The foil debate will never end. I am still waiting for the debate of whether Brisket is even BBQ

[landarc]

if you boil the brisket first and then add liquid smoke, of course it counts as BBQ

[ZILLA]

Originally Posted by RichardF

I'd wager a cold beer that the relative humidity (i'm guessing 100%) inside the foil of a wraped brisket would be much higher than therelative humidity of a fully-loaded smoker. to recreate the humidty of multiple briskets (or butts as the case may be) i'd think you'd be much better-off with a water pan.

That seems reasonable at first. However, the vapor barrier that surrounds any food cooking in a closed environment can not be duplicated by a water pan in that environment. Steam injection into bread oven not withstanding. Therefore a micro environment seems to be the next best thing, futhermore there is no denying that it works and works well.

[backyardchef]

I think a fuller cooker is definitely more humid, but more mass requires more fuel and also effects the air flow in the cooker and how efficiently/evenly the smoke/heat/air moves through the pit. I think....maybe.....

And probably the design of the pit has plenty to do with how it reacts to the quantity of product being cooked.....

[BBQ_MAFIA]

I never cooked with a Guru so I don't know how it gets affected by the moisture. To be honest, I haven't had a problem with my Spicewine at all. Then again, I may not have tried to cook as much volume at one time. Wish I could help, but just don't know what to say.

Originally Posted by Skip

Full cooking racks and large cooks always seem to crush the cooking box temp. This in turn causes my guru to stoke the fire. Unfortunately either the dense moist air holds down the heat and never reaches the probe or the moisture causes the probe to read incorrectly. This forces the fan to work harder and harder which causes my firebox temp to scream out of control. By the time the cooking box recovers the firebox is so hgih i.e. 350-400 that the cooking box screams past the desired temp and right up and out. It has happen and now we take precautions but we still haven't found a way to actively raise the cooking box without spiking the firebox.

Adversely small cooks tend to maintain temp wonderfully yet extraordinary means are required to keep the meat as moist as we'd want.

Any input would be welcomed Guido.

[Muzzlebrake]

Originally Posted by ZILLA

That seems reasonable at first. However, the vapor barrier that surrounds any food cooking in a closed environment can not be duplicated by a water pan in that environment. Steam injection into bread oven not withstanding. Therefore a micro environment seems to be the next best thing, futhermore there is no denying that it works and works well.

wouldn't a full water pan more accurately replicate the humidity produced by a fuller pit?
isn't that the purpose of the foil, to replicate the humidity of a full pit?

[1_T_Scot]

The best Pulled pork that I have made was when I was smoking it for a block party (a week early) and squeezed 3 butts into the Fake Bge copy. So I think this makes sense.

I guess ill just have to smoke some extras for left overs!!

[nmayeux]

He can still cook, but we'll have a keg of homebrew to make sure he gets it right!

Originally Posted by Uncle Buds BBQ

Hey! Leave Saiko alone!!! I'm trying to recruit him to cook high heat brisky for Team Uncle Bud!!!

We's ned ar sleep!

Originally Posted by nmayeux
On another note, we will be cooking at the Pigs and Peaches contest. Why don't you stop by for a beer?

[ZILLA]

Originally Posted by Muzzlebrake

wouldn't a full water pan more accurately replicate the humidity produced by a fuller pit?
isn't that the purpose of the foil, to replicate the humidity of a full pit?

I don't think so, as food cooks a thin layer of air and moister surrounds the food itself. It takes time for this layer to disapate. A full pit would increase that time. I can't see how air borne water vapor in a smoker can replicate that. This is why convection ovens are used in commercial applications. The forced air blows that vapor air barier away from the surface of the food to speed up cooking times and at lower temperatures and also providing very even temps through out the oven. I have never heard any science of how artifically introduced water vapor really behaves in the smoker. All I've ever heard this subject is conjecture and how people imagine it works.

[RichardF]

Originally Posted by ZILLA

I don't think so, as food cooks a thin layer of air and moister surrounds the food itself. It takes time for this layer to disapate. A full pit would increase that time.

time? in foil your brasing the meat 100% humidity. even if you have a microcliamte around the meat, some boundry layer effect it wouldn't be 100% humidity and your not brazing the meat. if it's a microcliamte that developes around what's being cooked, why would the amount being cooked make a diffrence. no matter how many butts/briskets you have in the cooker, there has to be sufficent airflow thru the cooker to keep the fire burning so there's always airflow accross the meat. i also don't think (even if the microclimate idea is correct) that meat sealed in foil is undergoing the same cooking process as unwraped meat in a full cooker.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by BBQ_MAFIA

I never cooked with a Guru so I don't know how it gets affected by the moisture. To be honest, I haven't had a problem with my Spicewine at all. Then again, I may not have tried to cook as much volume at one time. Wish I could help, but just don't know what to say.

Its not so much a p5roblem just a true difference in achieving temperature. With the guru the stacks are closed down to a point where a positive flow is only created with the fan. The cooker doesn't "breathe the same as when you maintain temp without forced air. Not having done enough cooks with a full pit I have not been able to dial it in. Fact is that the pit, full or near empty, cooks like nothing I've cooked on before. As for the guru and moisture. There has been some talk of high moisture affecting the probe. I don't know how true it is but I have heard it mentioned. I've also heard some will not use the water pan because of it.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by ZILLA

This is why convection ovens are used in commercial applications. The forced air blows that vapor air barier away from the surface of the food to speed up cooking times and at lower temperatures and also providing very even temps through out the oven..

Wow thank for that insight. I always wondered why it burned my food. lol

Originally Posted by RichardF

why would the amount being cooked make a diffrence. no matter how many butts/briskets you have in the cooker, there has to be sufficent airflow thru the cooker to keep the fire burning so there's always airflow accross the meat.

Funny I think I can speak to this not because of BBQ experience but work experience. I am a quality control specialist for an asphalt production facility. The quote around here is, "If you can't move air you can't make asphalt". The production facility is a big vacuum cleaner. Air is forced through the system to drag the heavy moistened air out of the chamber. The heavier the production and the greater the moisture the harder it is to create heat in the aggregate (sand and stone). Each aggregate particle has surface and internal moisture. The surface moisture leaves quickly while more therms and time are required to push the moisture from the micro fractures. During this process the stone will not heat above boiling point. I think the same thing goes for meat in a cooker. The barrier Zilla speaks of is that internal moisture being driven off. Now to speak to the full or empty chamber. When it has rained and we try to push the maximum ton per hour through the plant it gets choked out because there is too much moisture in the air. The air flow slows and stalls in some places. Since hot air rises the heat from the flame is pulled past these heavy pockets of moistened air and right out the stack. The hot air follows the path of least resistence and bypasses the heavy air. This then chokes down the flame because the moisture now changes the oxygen content for combustion. A pit works very similar. If the meat in the box is producing a heavy air pocket in the cooker then the heat will follow the path of least resistance and bypass the heavy air which will sit around the meat. Just my humble opinion.

[RichardF]

Originally Posted by Skip

Wow thank for that insight. I always wondered why it burned my food. lol



Funny I think I can speak to this not because of BBQ experience but work experience. I am a quality control specialist for an asphalt production facility. The quote around here is, "If you can't move air you can't make asphalt". The production facility is a big vacuum cleaner. Air is forced through the system to drag the heavy moistened air out of the chamber. The heavier the production and the greater the moisture the harder it is to create heat in the aggregate (sand and stone). Each aggregate particle has surface and internal moisture. The surface moisture leaves quickly while more therms and time are required to push the moisture from the micro fractures. During this process the stone will not heat above boiling point. I think the same thing goes for meat in a cooker. The barrier Zilla speaks of is that internal moisture being driven off. Now to speak to the full or empty chamber. When it has rained and we try to push the maximum ton per hour through the plant it gets choked out because there is too much moisture in the air. The air flow slows and stalls in some places. Since hot air rises the heat from the flame is pulled past these heavy pockets of moistened air and right out the stack. The hot air follows the path of least resistence and bypasses the heavy air. This then chokes down the flame because the moisture now changes the oxygen content for combustion. A pit works very similar. If the meat in the box is producing a heavy air pocket in the cooker then the heat will follow the path of least resistance and bypass the heavy air which will sit around the meat. Just my humble opinion.

While i don't fully understand the physics i can accept the analogy and have always agreed that there is more moisture in a fully loaded pit then a lightly loaded pit. are you describing a situation where there is reduced airflow in the proximity of the meat because of heavy air in the proximity? after a rain is the problem that the aggregate is wet or that relative humidity has increased or both. is one of the remedies to this to increase airflow and temperature/or fuel burned to maintain a constant temperature. so if you have a moist environment either from multiple birskets or from humidity introduced by a water pan, shouldn't the brisket your cooking behave the same way? this still doesn't explain how a foil wrapped brisket is analogus to a brisket cooked in a full cooker.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by RichardF

are you describing a situation where there is reduced airflow in the proximity of the meat because of heavy air in the proximity?.

Yes. Air flow slows the heavier the air becomes. When you reach a saturation level the air no longer mingles well and the lighter hotter air will travel past or over this heavy air and find its exit.

Originally Posted by RichardF

after a rain is the problem that the aggregate is wet or that relative humidity has increased or both..

The higher moisture in the aggregate causes the most problem. The plant is designed to move a specific column of air. as that air becomes heavier the plant becomes less efficient. Since you are moving the same quantity of material but dealing with more moisture the column of air can become too heavy to move. This causes problems which lead to a collapse of air flow. Once that happens the bypassing hot air spikes out the stack temp while the heavy air then chokes out the fire.

Originally Posted by RichardF

is one of the remedies to this to increase airflow and temperature/or fuel burned to maintain a constant temperature.

Actually no. The remedy is to lower production so that the column of air created is able to be moved by the force air exhaust. Fuel consumption will go up relative to tons produced though since more drying is necessary. Air flow as well is limited to a max. This problem occurs when you exceed the max capabilities of your exhaust system.

Originally Posted by RichardF

so if you have a moist environment either from multiple birskets or from humidity introduced by a water pan, shouldn't the brisket your cooking behave the same way?

Not in my opinion. The moisture from the water pan is similar to the first drying that takes place. When we drive off suface moisture. This portion is constant in that the surface area of the water in the pan is pretty much constant and the release of moisture into the chamber is metered relative to the temperature. The humidity from the briskets is relative to how it is released which can spike and is not as even as the release from the water pan. Similar to the way the internal moisture in the aggregate is driven off at one specific point in the process.

Originally Posted by RichardF

this still doesn't explain how a foil wrapped brisket is analogus to a brisket cooked in a full cooker.

Exactly the same no. But having a similar cook possibly IMO. There is a pressure created when the column of air becomes too heavy. This pressure quite possibly could mimic the conditions inside the foil. A pressure cooker works on the same principle. Its just how efficient each aspect is. The pressure cooker then the foil then the presure laden full cooker. There are similarities in each enviroment.

Again this is all theory and opinion backed by experience.