Taste? Texture? Taste? Texture?

BBQchef33

BBQchef33

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Been doing some thinking about scoring systems.

Appearance / Taste / Texture.... Usually, Appearance is weighted the least and taste weighted the highest, which makes the taste of the food the dominant portion of our scores.

BUT what is the real challenge in cooking in competition?

We can all make something taste good. (just smear some blues hog on it :becky: ). We agonize over flavor profiles, balancing, smoke/wood influence, temps etc.. but in all actuality, a non offensive commercial rub will taste just plain old good. So, what is our real challenge??? And what hits the judges first in that first bite?

We establish our flavor profiles out of a jar or 10, prep the meat and into the pit it goes. Flavor is done.. ...But then we spend hours checking, probing, foiling, un-foiling, setting, dipping, dunking, shredding slicing and pulling, not drying it out, not undercooking it, not burning the skin, not making it too tough or too mushy. Whats the challenge.. taste?? or texture?

Soooo...what has more of an influence on the judges? When the judge bites that thigh, what do they notice first. Juicy, tender, dry or chewy? thats the FIRST impression, and then comes the flavors. Texture hits first, and can make your score RIGHT THEN AND THERE. Can perfection in texture mentally influence the judge and over shadow mediocre flavors. ?? if so, then why is the texture weight the lowest? Or is THAT WHY the texture weight is lower(to balance the scoring?)

Think about it, a great, well balance flavor profile will never hold up a tough brisket, mushy pork, undercooked chicken, or chewy rib. I dont think i ever heard a judge say it was tough, but tasted good so I gave it all 9's. Or you nailed the texture, and screwed up the flavors, and get penalized because the weight of the texture is less than the weight of the flavor scores. You cooked it perfectly, but the judged hated your profile.. why get nailed.. ??

What if..... the weights were reversed, giving texture more weight than flavor??? Just sayin... :thumb:



discuss.
 
To me taste is the most important part of a competition and I think should have the highest weight for score. Having said that, I think I can cook meat as well as any competition team competing, but when it come to flavor profiles, we sure seem to be hit and miss.

I do think some judges can't distinguish between taste and tenderness or at least they dont seem to seperate it when it comes to judging. I have judged plenty of meat I have given 9's in taste, and 6 or 7's in tenderness and the inverse is true, just like you pointed out.

I used to think as judges got more experience, their scores woud reflect it, but I have sat with a few Master CBJ's at contest and I have scored a piece of meat a 7 and they gave it a 5, that has made me scratch my head a few times...I like to think I know the difference between below average, average and above average BBQ. When you start talking about Very Good and Excellet I am sure more subjectivity comes into play, but when you start giving 5's and below, you need to be able to articulate why, and I find too many CBJ's, Masters or not that cannot.
 
I think it takes real skill to take a tuff piece of meat and make it tender.. taste is important, but I think cooking a piece of meat is the hard part..
 
FBA weights tenderness and taste almost equally.
Now that I have learned how to cook the meat properly--I like that!

Basically (rounding off) 10% appearance, 45% each for tenderness and taste.
If I am off--RUB or someone will correct me.

Works for me.

TIM
 
Just my opinion (and I don't post here a lot so take it with a grain of salt)...

The entrance criteria towards winning is cooking the meat right, and from there it's a flavor/appearance contest. If it looks good and has the best sauce/rub, etc of the day, but is not cooked right, it's not going to win.
 
I too think taste is and should be more important. Texture is simply getting the time and temperature right. Flavor is a whole other animal. Our ribs, for example, go thru 5 individual steps.. Each adding another layer to the flavor of the ribs.
 
Actually, I guess I'll add a couple more thoughts.

First, the meat needs to be cooked right to have a shot at winning (I just can't see tasty, well arranged, tough ribs winning).

After that you are left with appearance and taste. Of those two, I think appearance should be the lowest factor.

This doesn't mean I think texture should be weighted the most however. I do think that ultimately it is a FLAVOR contest, and would like it weighted that way.

Just to clarify what I was saying.

Because I can't put a complete thought down in one post to save my life for some reason.

I'm sure I'll be back later to add some more.
 
I strive for "properly cooked" (texture) meats first...then taste...then appearance. Nothing worse than a tough, mushy, or dry piece of meat...regardless of what seasonings or sauces are on it...my 2 cents! :becky:
 
I will put my hat in this ring. There was once a poll somewhere that actually ranked some of these traits, albeit not for competition. But here is my respectful opinion. You are not going to win with poor scores in either so... you need to master both! Now that being said, I would say that texture is crucial - so crucial in fact I do not think it should be discussed as it is a given. In addition, the factor I just mentioned that I refuse to discuss any further has a crucial impact on taste... the reverse is not true. Think about that.

A guy whose name rhymes with "Mil bazzuto" aka - rhymes with "Barry" once called me to cuss me out. In the process he ended up telling me how he did a particular cut of meat. It got me to think one night. This guy takes this particular cut and slow cooks it at a really low temp, for a long time.... he has the equipment to do it too... anyway then he comes back and ramps the heat up real high... then slows it down. He says he does it for "depth." I tried it.... with equipment other than my stupidly inefficient Brazos, and I was VERY impressed... tenderness.... about as tender as my high heat method... but the reach to that tenderness ended up affecting the end taste.

So like politics, its circular. One can be so right they end up being radical... keep going and you end up in anarchy or tyranny both of which share the same space.

So my answer is.... sort of like what I said as another personality long ago. If you cannot get tenderness down you actually have no place competing anyway unless you like to hang with those of us that have the skills. But never forget the impact tenderness has (well if you can do it in a smoker - I am not talking about tender simmered meat :) on flavor. So... the two are interconnected. Unlike appearance... which often is in most regions outside where I am, external to your taste. But that's another argument that has been done to death.
 
i've always felt tenderness is the gateway to taste. without tender, taste ain't worth a darn.

if ya aint gona enjoy chewing it, you ain't gonna enjoy tasting it.

as far as scoring, it's harder to make comp BBQ tender than taste good, i'd say flip flop.

like scottie said, all you need is smokin guns hot, blues hog, and a toothpick.

now where does the skill and quality q come into play? rubbing with SGH, saucing with BH, or executing your skills on your pit to make that toothpick do it's thang!

tender is an absolute and better BBQ. it either is or isn't cooked properly.

flavor is subjective. should be weighted less.
 
roksmith said:
I too think taste is and should be more important. Texture is simply getting the time and temperature right. Flavor is a whole other animal. Our ribs, for example, go thru 5 individual steps.. Each adding another layer to the flavor of the ribs.
Click to expand...


simply? c'mon now.
 
Texture/tenderness means alot, I learned that the hard way this past week cooking on a new cooker, my ribs needed at least another 1/2 hour and instead of a top 5 finish, I got 14th. BTW, I nailed the taste part!!!!
 
And now for something completely different......

I think that taste and tenderness are so intertwined that they should be one score:boxing:

So, what to do with the other scoring criteria? How about Appearance (lowest weighted) Taste/Tenderness (highest weighted) & Creativity (middle weighted). Adding creativity as a scoring criteria would help reverse the homogeneous trend in entries and encourage cooks to stretch the envelope a bit.
 
Pitmaster T said:
BBQ Priorities POll #1 - What do we Learn to Cook For First?
Polling Priorities #2- What Traits do we Conquer First?
Polling Priorities #3 - What Traits do we conquer Second?
Polling Priorities #4 - What Challenges/Challenged you Most?

And the ever popular and fun - The Real Causes of Bad BBQ
Click to expand...

interesting results.

Poll #4 reinforces my theory. BBQ cooks find texture/moisture the hardest to perfect. Thats the challenge. Taste is easy to NOT screw up by simply using a good rub. I am not saying its easy to perfect or to succeed in exactly what one is trying to produce.. but its hard to make BBQ taste bad... short of a total screwup like marinating a pork butt in margarita mix. :bow:


but nailing that perfectly cooked rib or brisket takes time and practice. Being we are competing for the title of 'the best', shouldnt the winner be the one to conquer the biggest challenge.

:becky:
 
From a personal point of view, I find that texture is the most important thing. I am a texture eater first, then flavor second. This is why I don't like fish, it isn't the taste, it is the texture. As it applies to competition BBQ, for me, I would not have a hard time separating them, as texture is more empirical than taste. But, while I can judge it separately, good BBQ has to have both. I would think equal weighting would be better.
 
Then there are people such as myself. I can cook any entry to whatever texture I want, but that does me no good until I know what texture I should be shooting for. I have had the supposed tenderness guidelines described to me numerous times, but until I get to try a good example of a winning texture for myself, I'm just making an educated guess.

As far as taste is concerned, the way I understand it is that judges are taught to look for the most balanced combination of the major tastes. Those being salty, sweet, sour, bitter, and heat. Problem with that is different people have different thresholds for different tastes. A well balanced flavor profile to me will be too sour, or maybe not sweet enough to someone else. Also a flavor profile can be very well balanced but still be overwhelming or bland depending on the situation and the taster.

But I agree on the main topic wholeheartedly. I think a good example is steak. Now I think we have all had a bad steak at one time or another. I have had quite a few myself. I have never disliked a steak because of the seasoning used. It has been because it was dry or tough or both every time. Also I have never said "Man that steak tasted great but it was tough!" For me, the texture of a bad steak overshadows any good that was accomplished with flavoring. Conversely I can't imagine liking a steak that was cooked to perfection but was covered in some nasty bizarre rub.

I personally see them as integral to each other.
 
BBQchef33 said:
but nailing that perfectly cooked rib or brisket takes time and practice. Being we are competing for the title of 'the best', shouldnt the winner be the one to conquer the biggest challenge.

:becky:
Click to expand...

I agree 100%, but let's face it.. you, as a competitor, are there to please the judges... and the judges want food that "taste" great.
 
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