New KCBS scoresheet

[billygbob]

Originally Posted by YankeeBBQ

Do you think the board of directors of any major company knows the complete details of how their products work ? They have technical people for that. I worked at a biomedical research facility for 18 years. We had technical, political and business people on our board of directors. The board is there to make major decisions and steer the direction of the company or organization. It's not the boards job to know the detail of everything going on. It's the boards job to make sure the company has people in place to do that.

You have a point for a major company. However, KCBS is NOT a major company with hundreds or thousands of employees, multiple divisions, and geographically dispersed business units. The board has chosen to release a new scoring system impacting all cooks and judges without guides or documentation. The KCBS BOD is closely involved with the most minute aspects of operations (read any BOD meeting minutes) so I would think any of them should understand how contests are scored by SCORE. It is the biggest change in KCBS contests in a decade (since "all entries start with a '999'"). How are cooks and judges supposed to understand SCORE when the BOD doesn't.

[Big Poppa]

Candy Sue is president...she does not get paid...she volunteers for all of us in bbq. I for one am happy she has posted here....

[Hawg Father of Seoul]

Originally Posted by billygbob

How can the KCBS President not know how the new scoring system works? Should not every member of the Board know all details of how it works and be able to justify their decision to have it work that way , or how they disagreed with the implementation?

Amazing!

So sad....

I dislike these statements.

Thank you Candy Sue. You are MUCH more transparent than we deserve and for that I say BRAVO!!!

[Muzzlebrake]

Originally Posted by billygbob

You have a point for a major company. However, KCBS is NOT a major company with hundreds or thousands of employees, multiple divisions, and geographically dispersed business units.

It isn't? I think it meets the majority if not all of the items you mentioned. Perhaps not hundreds or thousand but certainly scores of employees spread out over multiple divisions across not just the US cut internationally as well.

[Gowan]

Tracking judges is not a tool for cooks.

It should be used by KCBS to detect when retraining is needed and perhaps a tool for organizers to use in selecting judges.

[Alexa RnQ]

If the persons who claim to understand the needs of competitors admittedly don't understand the ramifications of their new system that so directly and vitally impacts competitors....

[Fat Freddy]

Had my first experience with the new score sheets at this weekends Sams club contest in Des Moines. I had teamed up with fellow brethren LeatherheadIowa. I did chicken and ribs while he did big meats.

At awards we got a 9th place call in ribs so I was pleased but after I got a chance to look over new scoresheet, I think I am even more happy with our 11th place finish in chicken.

We were on table 1. We won the table in chicken. But in all 4 categories combined there was not a single top 10 call in any category. The very best category finish in all 4 meats was my 11th place chicken. I think table 1 second best finisher was 14th in pork and down from there.

I was happy with my scores so definitely not complaining but it sure seems that table 1 was a bad table for most if not all. Seems to me that if someone finished best at the table no matter what the category they should have at least gotten a top 10 call in that category. For me I am still very happy with 11th but what about those teams that landed on table 1 twice, they were messed up from the beginning.

[Mad About Que]

okay... so I've read about 9 pages of this thread.. and your all wrong. here's the best idea. hand over the scoring aspect to a current Reality TV production crew. Have the judges discuss and vote on each entry. Think a bunch of tables of American Idol judging. oh, theres a thought.. we could walk in down a long hallway with odd ambient lighting and ominous tones sit with our box and let them pick it apart....

but for real, scoring gets to be a tricky beast, and smarter folks than me should be figuring that out. a few years ago in Charlotte Backyard contest, they had it all farked up. some tables with 4 judges, some with 6. then they just averaged the score. worked out for me when some BOA number nerd figured out that there was an issue and I ended up getting a phone call, a check and a trophy for 2nd place ribs. The team that had been the 2nd place ribs got to keep their prizes and was upset the next year and accused me of being one of the whiners. "Dude, someone called me and told me, someone else called me and mailed me a check.".... But crap like that in contests where city event planners and the fire chief are planning the event and setting judging. KCBS/MBM and the like will tweek it, but someone will never be happy. I know statistics will show a few things, but really it's all a page out of the book "Things That Losers Say"...

and I know this is a touchy subject, and of course i'm just talking smack. I have no idea what i'm talking about. my first KCBS event is next week and I'm just hoping that I make turn in's, much less who was on what table. Now remind me of my sarcastic undertone NEXT week when i'm on here complaining about math errors in my 89th place whatever.. hahahahahaa

[Gowan]

Originally Posted by Fat Freddy

I was happy with my scores so definitely not complaining but it sure seems that table 1 was a bad table for most if not all. Seems to me that if someone finished best at the table no matter what the category they should have at least gotten a top 10 call in that category. For me I am still very happy with 11th but what about those teams that landed on table 1 twice, they were messed up from the beginning.

No, your reasoning is flawed. Think of it this way:

A contest has 6 tables. With random selection, it turns out that five brand new teams hit table 1, along with your box. Each of those five new teams are still learning, so they get appropriately low scores. Your product is better, nothing great but it still easily "wins the table". Does that automatically make it a top ten entry?

It's the X factor of the quality of entries each table receives to judge that defeats this idea. Put another way, if you are the best of the worst, that doesn't mean you deserve to walk.

[big matt]

I asked this earlier but got no response..is it normal to hit all the tables with the same group of teams here is an example from last weekend in Az..we hit every table with the same teams except 1 team on pork and brisket..does this happen every time?

[Rookie'48]

[QUOTE=Fat Freddy;2559345] . . .but what about those teams that landed on table 1 twice . . . [QUOTE]

Freddy, the way it's set up you should never have that happen unless you're at a contest with LESS than four tables of judges.

Every Table Captain has a sheet where he or she scratches off each team's number as they get that box. This will stop your entries from hitting the same table twice.

I hope that this helps explain things a little bit .

[Fat Freddy]

[quote=Rookie'48;2559682][QUOTE=Fat Freddy;2559345] . . .but what about those teams that landed on table 1 twice . . .

Freddy, the way it's set up you should never have that happen unless you're at a contest with LESS than four tables of judges.

Every Table Captain has a sheet where he or she scratches off each team's number as they get that box. This will stop your entries from hitting the same table twice.

I hope that this helps explain things a little bit .

Thanks Dave, not having a copy of the sheet for myself, my teammate had his and the person I rode home with has his. Seems like there is some real question how it all workes, but I have also found out you have already heard about most of the questions,lol.

Like I say I am not unhappy at all, just for the short amount of time I could look at the sheet seemed confusing. Maybe after this coming weekend I will understand completely when I see my disasters I figure is coming.

[LindaM]

Originally Posted by BMerrill

I competed at this same contest last weekend as Lotta Bull.

From the printout, Lotta Bull was placed on Table 13 twice.
With 78 teams this should not happen.
Table #13 was the highest scoring table with 7 top ten calls.
This information is provided on the score sheets.

Table numbers for 1st-10th of each catagory
CK, 4, 2, 3, 12, 7, 9, 2, 2, 11, 12
RI, 1, 1, 12, 8, 4, 13, 13, 11, 1,13
PK, 2, 13, 5, 4, 3, 7, 1, 12, 13,13
BK, 10,12, 5, 8, 1, 13, 8, 12, 2, 1

Top 10 calls by table.
Table 1, calls 6
Table 2, calls 5
Table 3, calls 2
Table 4, calls 3
Table 5, calls 2
Table 6, calls 0
Table 7, calls 2
Table 8, calls 3
Table 9, calls 1
Table 10, calls 1
Table 11, calls 2
Table 12, calls 6
Table 13, calls 7

My entries landed on tables 9, 5, 6, 10; the 4 lowest scoring tables for top 10 calls. The lowest scoring judge was Judge 1, on Table 9 with average of 25.1633.
On chicken this judge gave us 6,6,7 = 25.1428
The other judges
#2 9,8,8 = 32.56
#3 9,9,9 = 36.00
#4 8,8,7 = 30.8572
#5 9,8,8 = 32.5600
#6 9,8,9 = 33.7028
His/her score appears to be completely out of line with the other judges. Here are all of the scores this judge gave out for the day:

CK= 28.5600, 34.8800, 25.1428, 28.0000, 20.0000, 26.2972
RI = 29.1428, 25.1200, 19.4400, 24.0000, 15.3828, 18.2972
PK= 19.4400, 29.1428, 25.1200, 24.0000, 15.3828, 18.2972
BK= 27.4400, 27.4172, 32.0000, 29.7028, 30.2972, 24.0000

This judge should be on KCBS's radar.

We were told at the cooks meeting.
The blind number will no longer be on the print out.
Are using the new 2013 scoring weights.
Comments cards have been temporary stopped.
The Judge Average Score is from all 4 catagories.
KCBS will be tracking judges.

and now the question is how many of those low scoring judges are Master Judges. They typically score much lower than new judges.

[swamprb]

Got to experience judging my first KCBS comp in many years today and was amazed at how efficient the HJ/Reps were in tallying the results as we turned in the scoresheets. Was able to take a look at results from a previous comp from the Rep using the new software and was pretty impressed at how the scoresheets looked.
Took a look at some of the teams results and liked the table averages, (and how I scored with my table mates) heard some sour grapes complaints from one that felt getting 3 turn ins on 1 table was unfair, but not the GC that had the same results. Very small event with only 13 teams and @75% KCBS CBJ's in attendance.
Awards were earlier than announced, which I think made everyone happy as well.

[Rich Parker]

Originally Posted by big matt

I asked this earlier but got no response..is it normal to hit all the tables with the same group of teams here is an example from last weekend in Az..we hit every table with the same teams except 1 team on pork and brisket..does this happen every time?

I noticed that this weekend as I was on the same table with one team three times. I think we are going to see the box dance (folks walking up with only certain teams) a little more often as others realize it.