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Competition BBQ *On Topic Only* Discussion regarding all aspects of Competition BBQ. Experiences competing or visiting, questions, getting started, Equipment, announcements of events, Results, Reviews, Planning, etc. Questions here will be responded to with competition BBQ in mind.


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Old 08-21-2019, 05:22 PM   #121
Mike in Roseville
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Originally Posted by tduffy View Post
What a great way to kill teams from getting meat and equipment sponsors........


Sounds like BBQ socialism.

LOL!


I can't tell if you're being serious or if that's tongue-in-cheek.


Let me ask you a question. So with all of the rules/equal footing NASCAR implements do you consider that "Racing Socialism?" They don't seem to have a problem with sponsorship.


Like I said previously: if you keep doing what you're doing, you'll keep getting what you got.
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Old 08-22-2019, 10:55 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Mike in Roseville View Post
LOL!


I can't tell if you're being serious or if that's tongue-in-cheek.


Let me ask you a question. So with all of the rules/equal footing NASCAR implements do you consider that "Racing Socialism?" They don't seem to have a problem with sponsorship.


Like I said previously: if you keep doing what you're doing, you'll keep getting what you got.



Yes. I'm actually being serious. Should KCBS also provide you seasoned and injected meat too?

Actually NASCAR has a huge sponsor problem. The teams struggle to find sponsors and nascar has had to take less money for their series sponsors. Every rule that NASCAR has implemented to decrease costs has increased them. Less testing.......... big teams buy more technology to simulate testing in their own shops. That costs way more than testing. Reduce horsepower, teams spend more money trying to get it back.
TV ratings are down, less fans in the stands, nascar is in a big decline. The last thing KCBS should ever model themselves after is NASCAR.


"Like I said previously: if you keep doing what you're doing, you'll keep getting what you got."

Good. At the end of the day KCBS is still the premier sanction in competition BBQ and even with it's faults it's far and above any other competition BBQ sanctioning body. If we are looking for change, limiting cooks is not the answer.
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Old 08-22-2019, 02:12 PM   #123
Mike in Roseville
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Yes. I'm actually being serious. Should KCBS also provide you seasoned and injected meat too?

Actually NASCAR has a huge sponsor problem. The teams struggle to find sponsors and nascar has had to take less money for their series sponsors. Every rule that NASCAR has implemented to decrease costs has increased them. Less testing.......... big teams buy more technology to simulate testing in their own shops. That costs way more than testing. Reduce horsepower, teams spend more money trying to get it back.
TV ratings are down, less fans in the stands, nascar is in a big decline. The last thing KCBS should ever model themselves after is NASCAR.

"Like I said previously: if you keep doing what you're doing, you'll keep getting what you got."

Good. At the end of the day KCBS is still the premier sanction in competition BBQ and even with it's faults it's far and above any other competition BBQ sanctioning body. If we are looking for change, limiting cooks is not the answer.

Gotcha. First, most of the televised sports are seeing a decline in viewership. What I meant when I said NASCAR doesn't have a sponsorship problem was you don't see cars with only a number (and without a sponsor wrap/paint scheme) going around the track. The amount the sponsor spends was not necessarily where I was going with that. People will still sign up to sponsor $x dollars but maybe not $2-3x dollars (quantity v quality).


Back to BBQ. So if KCBS is the premier sanctioning body of competition BBQ (with it's faults) then what is the problem? Is it interest? Or decline in membership? Participation, etc.? At the end of the day it's always going to be about money. It might not be only about money, but money is part of it. Not that it was ever cheap, but a local KCBS comp last year actually adjusted their entrance fee's for people wanting to cook 1-2 meats instead of all four. I thought that was pretty cool. Why did they do this? Because people weren't signing up. When they implemented a tiered fee, did more people sign up? Not everyone at the Olympics wants to do the Decathlon; some just want to do the high jump or 100m sprint.

They also had a nicely tiered system for sales of food that actually put money back into the pockets of the competitors (making some of their entries little to no net cost at the end of the day). And...here we are...back to $$$. Again...a creative way to start drawing in fresh teams into the fold that might be on the fence.

If Competitive BBQ want's to be considered a sport (like all of the other major sports....even Poker which was brought up), then it needs to be more inclusive (as opposed to exclusive...e.g., excludes participation). Inclusive can be "cost" or "opportunity" or "availability." Not saying there is a simple answer to this. It might be a little bit of a few things that gets addresses concerns and garners more involvement.

This thread in general has raised some interesting concerns and possible solutions. That's a start.
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Old 08-22-2019, 04:03 PM   #124
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Gotcha. First, most of the televised sports are seeing a decline in viewership. What I meant when I said NASCAR doesn't have a sponsorship problem was you don't see cars with only a number (and without a sponsor wrap/paint scheme) going around the track. The amount the sponsor spends was not necessarily where I was going with that. People will still sign up to sponsor $x dollars but maybe not $2-3x dollars (quantity v quality).


Back to BBQ. So if KCBS is the premier sanctioning body of competition BBQ (with it's faults) then what is the problem? Is it interest? Or decline in membership? Participation, etc.? At the end of the day it's always going to be about money. It might not be only about money, but money is part of it. Not that it was ever cheap, but a local KCBS comp last year actually adjusted their entrance fee's for people wanting to cook 1-2 meats instead of all four. I thought that was pretty cool. Why did they do this? Because people weren't signing up. When they implemented a tiered fee, did more people sign up? Not everyone at the Olympics wants to do the Decathlon; some just want to do the high jump or 100m sprint.

They also had a nicely tiered system for sales of food that actually put money back into the pockets of the competitors (making some of their entries little to no net cost at the end of the day). And...here we are...back to $$$. Again...a creative way to start drawing in fresh teams into the fold that might be on the fence.

If Competitive BBQ want's to be considered a sport (like all of the other major sports....even Poker which was brought up), then it needs to be more inclusive (as opposed to exclusive...e.g., excludes participation). Inclusive can be "cost" or "opportunity" or "availability." Not saying there is a simple answer to this. It might be a little bit of a few things that gets addresses concerns and garners more involvement.

This thread in general has raised some interesting concerns and possible solutions. That's a start.


So a KCBS comp had a bunch of teams that didn't cook all 4, did it even end up with 25 teams turning in all 4 to be a qualifier then? Did the organizer let other teams know they were allowing this so those of us who won't cook a contest that isn't a qualifier for the Jack and Royal could go somewhere else?
If you don't want to cook 4 categories, then you'd be better suited cooking backyard BBQ comps or competitor series events. Competition BBQ has always been expensive and that will never change. What's the point of cooking a contest if you are only going to cook half the categories? Why do something in a way you have no chance at winning? Let's be realistic. If you can't afford a $250-$300 entry fee then you have no business cooking competitive BBQ in the first place. You cannot afford it.
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Old 08-22-2019, 05:24 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by Mike in Roseville View Post
Back to BBQ. So if KCBS is the premier sanctioning body of competition BBQ (with it's faults) then what is the problem? Is it interest? Or decline in membership? Participation, etc.?
From what I have seen over the last several years the problem, at least from the new competitor standpoint, is that there are fewer new teams coming out for events. I can only speak about California in that regard, I have been team of the year commissioner for 4 years and the rookie of the year race is much smaller now than when I started. When I started there were 10+ team in the rookie of the year race and now there are 6 that earned points towards our rookie of the year award. My guess is that the lack of new BBQ on TV is keeping new teams from exploring the option more.

I think some of the cost issues are real and some are blown out of proportion. I might be crazy but I think you can still win with a couple of WSMs or drum smokers and a popup tent. While the fancy trailers, RVs and high dollar smokers may intimidate some and make them feel less competitive they really are not necessary to win. If you excluded the expensive extras the costs are comparable to other hobbies like golf or poker, a weekend overnight doing either of those is about the same as doing an overnight contest.
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Old 08-22-2019, 06:06 PM   #126
Mike in Roseville
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Obviously, we are entitled to our own opinions. People can compete to...Have fun? Hang out? Gain experience? Meet people with similar interests and network? If someone just cooks ribs they could theoretically take first place in ribs but have no shot at a GC or RGC. If I had a good time and met some cool folks, I'd be fine with that. Maybe someone does one meat and gets bitten by the bug to expand the following year?


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Originally Posted by tduffy View Post
Let's be realistic. If you can't afford a $250-$300 entry fee then you have no business cooking competitive BBQ in the first place. You cannot afford it.
As we have all discussed previously, it's not just an entry fee. Meat, travel, lodging, transportation, etc. all play into it. There aren't always Backyard or Competitor series around. So many ideas to drum up interest have already been mentioned.

While we're being "realistic," your sentiment sounds more like that of a member of country club talking about squash or polo rather than someone trying to champion an organization with roots in "low country" cooking. Telling people what they can't afford or they can't do something or what their business is?

Your position isn't wrong. It's just the complete antithesis of what BBQ is for me. Like I said before, exclusive vs. inclusive. How do you get more involvement? Maybe consider not telling people they have no business being there? But what do I know? Sounds like you guys have a good handle on this.

I'll leave it to you all then.
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Old 08-22-2019, 06:08 PM   #127
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And an Excellent ToY commissioner too !!!

Eric...

There are a few areas in which team can make improvements... In the last couple of years we've seen a few excellent contests not return with the 2 below issues as their reason.

Signing up for contests earlier. Don't wait until the last minute.
And more participation in People Choice or similar events.
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Old 08-22-2019, 08:21 PM   #128
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Here are some thoughts. First, many consider some of the top teams in KCBS as pros because of their success and that is fair. I'd even go so far as to say that any Master Series event is at least semi-pro level, even though a majority of the cook teams do it as a hobby. How many of the judges are professional or semi-pro judges? None! They are all volunteer judges. I'm not bashing judges. They do their job as it is presented to them but KCBS has created this system. As a cook, we have rules and regulations that must be followed, even though most are almost impossible to enforce. Nonetheless, we have rules. If we turn in the wrong garnish or a foreign object, we get disqualified. If we don't turn in enough pieces, we are marked down. Judges don't have rules. They have some guidelines but if they don't follow those guidelines, there is no consequence to them. The Reps are there to make sure cooks follow the rules but they don't have a way to ensure judges follow guidelines.

How can you consider this a professional competition when you have volunteer judges, with no accountability, who determine the outcome? Some have compared competition BBQ to other sports, like racing or poker. The difference is that those sports have some sort of professional or semi-pro people who oversee the sport. You don't go to a race and they ask for a volunteer out of the stands to be in charge of lining up the cars and being flagman. They have people who are trained to do the job and if they don't do it properly, they get fired. That is not the case in BBQ. To be a judge and determine the outcome of an event, you only need to pay your dues. If you apply your own criteria to the judging process, there is no accountability. Maybe some get flagged from individual events but if they pay their dues, they can sign up to judge any other event they wish.

Until KCBS is ready to address a standard for judging, it will continue to have the outcome determined by volunteers who have no accountability. I don't call that professional.
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Old 08-22-2019, 09:32 PM   #129
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I have been reading the comments and have a few thoughts that agree with others and disagree with some but only one I want to actually comments on is Mike in Roseville and the comment about always cars with sponsors and none plain. Thats not true, actually every Cup race has at least one plain Jane car and many times several with nothing more than a number, or like in one drivers case, Cory Lajoie, his wrap was nothing but his face on his car... Sorry brother just giving you a hard time there,

Anyways recently I did have an interesting discussion with a small team that does unsanctioned and events like that and it is at least something to think about, not saying i agree or disagree but at least is an interesting topic.

His issue with KCBS was indeed the haves and have nots and cost, but he brought up something different than meat. He was saying he can show up to a contest and see all the fancy trailers and set ups with all the sponsor banners and signage and as a new team with little to no experience, it immediately makes him think he has little to no chance so why would he want to sink a weeks paycheck to do the contest.

As someone that had and cooked out of a trailer, I tried to explain that most those started out on a basic cooker and canopy, however the argument brought up was in weather, rain, wind, heat etc who would be at an advantage? And i guess that is a valid point. But again I tried to debate that everyone started as that small simple team and again he brought up an interesting thought. So why would he as a small beginning team want to sign up for a contest early, sink a weeks paycheck to do the contest and have to deal with potential weather? He would be more inclined to wait until a day or 2 before to sign up so he has a pretty good idea what weather would be like.

HE said if everyone was cooking out of canopies and no trailers He would find it much more interesting and that is why he cooks the types of contests he cooks and everyone is pretty much at same level playing field and it is all about the art of cooking and the contest, not who has the best trailer. And then it was also brought u if everyone was cooking like that then the ability for the public to see things and be entertained was a bit more likely as would the opportunity for the newbies to meet the more established teams.

I cooked out of a trailer but his views were interesting and at least worth a discussion over a cigar and glass of whiskey even though I knew nothing I said would mean anything, his mind was made up but I gotta admit some valid points were made. I completely avoided the entire premium meat discussion because I didnt think i had enough booze to step into that mess.
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Old 08-23-2019, 08:56 AM   #130
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I’m so glad I decided to stay home that weekend.
So you let Taco pee on all your entries?
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Old 08-23-2019, 08:56 AM   #131
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I have been reading the comments and have a few thoughts that agree with others and disagree with some but only one I want to actually comments on is Mike in Roseville and the comment about always cars with sponsors and none plain. Thats not true, actually every Cup race has at least one plain Jane car and many times several with nothing more than a number, or like in one drivers case, Cory Lajoie, his wrap was nothing but his face on his car... Sorry brother just giving you a hard time there,

Anyways recently I did have an interesting discussion with a small team that does unsanctioned and events like that and it is at least something to think about, not saying i agree or disagree but at least is an interesting topic.

His issue with KCBS was indeed the haves and have nots and cost, but he brought up something different than meat. He was saying he can show up to a contest and see all the fancy trailers and set ups with all the sponsor banners and signage and as a new team with little to no experience, it immediately makes him think he has little to no chance so why would he want to sink a weeks paycheck to do the contest.

As someone that had and cooked out of a trailer, I tried to explain that most those started out on a basic cooker and canopy, however the argument brought up was in weather, rain, wind, heat etc who would be at an advantage? And i guess that is a valid point. But again I tried to debate that everyone started as that small simple team and again he brought up an interesting thought. So why would he as a small beginning team want to sign up for a contest early, sink a weeks paycheck to do the contest and have to deal with potential weather? He would be more inclined to wait until a day or 2 before to sign up so he has a pretty good idea what weather would be like.

HE said if everyone was cooking out of canopies and no trailers He would find it much more interesting and that is why he cooks the types of contests he cooks and everyone is pretty much at same level playing field and it is all about the art of cooking and the contest, not who has the best trailer. And then it was also brought u if everyone was cooking like that then the ability for the public to see things and be entertained was a bit more likely as would the opportunity for the newbies to meet the more established teams.

I cooked out of a trailer but his views were interesting and at least worth a discussion over a cigar and glass of whiskey even though I knew nothing I said would mean anything, his mind was made up but I gotta admit some valid points were made. I completely avoided the entire premium meat discussion because I didnt think i had enough booze to step into that mess.
All valid points and really comes down to what do you need to enjoy it. I too started in two tents, and a small rental trailer just to haul the cabinet smoker. It only took a couple of contest to realize how exhausting it was to pickup rental trailers, load/unload/load/unload, then put everything away once home to realize that was not fun for me. So I made the decision to go all in in order to provide the enjoyment to the weekend. Goes back to any hobby. The more you put into it, the more you get out of it.
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Old 08-23-2019, 09:45 AM   #132
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All valid points and really comes down to what do you need to enjoy it. I too started in two tents, and a small rental trailer just to haul the cabinet smoker. It only took a couple of contest to realize how exhausting it was to pickup rental trailers, load/unload/load/unload, then put everything away once home to realize that was not fun for me. So I made the decision to go all in in order to provide the enjoyment to the weekend. Goes back to any hobby. The more you put into it, the more you get out of it.
Same here. I started with pretty much bare essentials and then stepped up to a 6x12 cargo trailer that is multi-use (bbq in summer, decoys in fall/winter). I've done 3 contests out of the trailer now and I already find myself looking for another upgrade to a toy hauler or porch trailer to make it more enjoyable for the family/friends that come with. The tents work, the trailer works, but to me it's become something more than just a competition. It's become a weekend getaway to enjoy time with family and friends and meet a lot of great people.
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Old 08-23-2019, 09:50 AM   #133
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Same here. I started with pretty much bare essentials and then stepped up to a 6x12 cargo trailer that is multi-use (bbq in summer, decoys in fall/winter). I've done 3 contests out of the trailer now and I already find myself looking for another upgrade to a toy hauler or porch trailer to make it more enjoyable for the family/friends that come with. The tents work, the trailer works, but to me it's become something more than just a competition. It's become a weekend getaway to enjoy time with family and friends and meet a lot of great people.
Be careful It is a slippery slope

We are so used to the creature comforts of our TH that we'll never be without them :) I would love a porch trailer, but getting one with those comforts is expensive
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Old 08-23-2019, 10:03 AM   #134
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Be careful It is a slippery slope

We are so used to the creature comforts of our TH that we'll never be without them :) I would love a porch trailer, but getting one with those comforts is expensive
I agree with that!! More than likely I will end up with a toy hauler at some point, but I've also gotten my little cargo trailer set up exactly how I want so it will be hard to change from it! Just need to do something that's more family friendly so I can bring along the wife and little guy more often! I love the KCBS events and how friendly/inviting everyone has been. Hope to keep doing them for years to come!
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Old 08-23-2019, 10:05 AM   #135
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Same for us. We started with tents and a cargo trailer that was only good for hauling (no ac and such). Hell, our tents weren't even pop up tents. We had to assemble it every time. Then, we got pop up tents. Finally we got access to a camper so we have ac and a place to sleep, but the camper isn't ours so we still do everything outside.

A couple weeks ago we bought a porch trailer. This weekend will be the first weekend in it. However, we're old school in our team setup, and a porch trailer doesn't sleep 5. Therefore, we are still going to be bringing our camper and the porch trailer wherever we can, and rent hotel rooms at other comps. Still not ideal, but it is what it is.

That said, we'll still hang out outside, and everything else. We're plan on still being us, and being out trying to make friends, or at least share beers with people. I'm just looking forward to the comforts when prepping and such.
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