Trouble using Fireboard w/ insulated cabinet

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nickmv

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I've got a 26x50 insulted cabinet cooker, design is reverse flow with water pan + deflector to separate the firebox from the cook chamber. It'll hold about 15 lbs of coal and runs about 10 hrs on that. Anyway, I'm having the hardest time getting this thing working with an ATC. I currently have a Fireboard 2 + Pit Viper 10cfm fan.

My typical procedure has been as follows:

1. Light half a chimney

2. Dump 2.5 gals hot water into the water pan (about 2/3 - 3/4 full)

3. Make an unlit coal bed across the charcoal pan, clearing front right corner for the hot coals. Place chunks on top throughout, never exceeding maybe 20%

4. Dump white-ash hot coals into corner and close up the smoker.

5. Bottom side slider vents wide open, top vent wide open. Let 'er rip until 175 on the door.

6. At 175, close down side vents to 1/4 and top vent to 1/3. At 200, bottom vents down to about 1/8 - 1/10


Using this method works pretty well getting it started up and to 225 in about an hour or so after dumping coals in, maybe a tad more.

At that point I try to hook the controller up, closing down the side vents and letting the Pit Viper + FB do the rest of the work. I've tried a ton of different max outputs. Currently I'm down at 10%, but have previously been trying 30%, 50%, and 70%.

Generally the results I get are as follows:

  • Temp cant hold and starts to drop, 30m later it may surge like crazy
  • Temp cant hold, starts to drop, doesnt surge either
  • Temp slowly surges and gets 15F off or higher
  • Temp surges quick


I can't seem to find a spot where it just........works. It's frustrating as hell because I'm used to a solid ATC experience on my WSM. I end up having to constantly adjust the top and bottom vents. Or let's say I need to go up in temp like 20F. It's easier if I just turn off the ATC and open it up a bit, the ATC will end up just feeding fire and surging later.

Does anyone have any tips here? Anyone with a similar sized insulated cabinet know what fan output % they use?

I'm puzzled.
 
My thoughts are being that the Fireboard only works on canned programs you're probably not going to find one that works well with your insulated cabinet.
If you had a controller that you could tune the PID values to work specifically to your cabinets needs you'd be a lot better off. There's only one controller that I know of that you can manipulate the PID values to tune to your specific needs and it's an Auber Instruments controller.
I've heard of others using Fireboard and the others that are having luck controlling their cabinets but I'm not sure what they mean? I've heard some say they set it 20-30 degrees or more below desired cook temp to compensate for overshoot and everything is fine but to me that's not really what I would call ideal.
The canned programs that these controllers have probably are more suited for WSM, barrel cookers and others that are not insulated as well as some of the cabinet cookers.
 
I use the Fireboard II and Pit Viper fan on my Humphrey's Battle Box with good results. My normal cook temp is about 250°. To start, I close all sources of intake air except the fan and leave the top vent ~ 1/4 open.

When I load the charcoal basket I use the T shaped dividers to create a continuous channel that is about 5 inches wide and runs back and forth across the charcoal basket. I fill the channel with KBB and intersperse a few chunks of smoke wood to the first two rows. I light up with half a chimney of well lit coals poured on the start of the channel and let the Fireboard do its thing. This layout mimics the "snake method" and limits the flame front as the coals burn. I believe this makes the fire more controllable. I use the exhaust vent to adjust the temperature after the smoker is running in a steady state manner.

I had the same issues that you are experiencing when I tried filling the charcoal basket without the dividers and lighting one corner.
 
willsands said:
I use the Fireboard II and Pit Viper fan on my Humphrey's Battle Box with good results. My normal cook temp is about 250°. To start, I close all sources of intake air except the fan and leave the top vent ~ 1/4 open.

When I load the charcoal basket I use the T shaped dividers to create a continuous channel that is about 5 inches wide and runs back and forth across the charcoal basket. I fill the channel with KBB and intersperse a few chunks of smoke wood to the first two rows. I light up with half a chimney of well lit coals poured on the start of the channel and let the Fireboard do its thing. This layout mimics the "snake method" and limits the flame front as the coals burn. I believe this makes the fire more controllable. I use the exhaust vent to adjust the temperature after the smoker is running in a steady state manner.

I had the same issues that you are experiencing when I tried filling the charcoal basket without the dividers and lighting one corner.
Click to expand...

What max fan speed do you go with? I've got dividers I've and have tried using them but haven't tried the exhaust vent control method after dialing in.

So you let the Fireboard start the pit too? Where is your snake's start point relative to the vent that has the blower?
 
Not sure about the PID set up you're using, but I use a FlameBoss 300 I had sitting around with my Battle Box. Generally I let it take me up to temp & control most of the process.

Generally I have it hook it up soon after dumping coals. Go wide open on all vents until 30 - 50*F within my set temp. I clamp off the intake & vent to 1/2. Depending on how the approach to desired temps look I may or may not adjust the intake a bit more.

I'd like my fan manually pulsing every now and then to maintain temps rather than to be blowing 30%+ throughout the process.

It doesn't have a %Power choice or anything. Can't even recall the fan CFM off hand.

0866gfKl.jpg


Have you tried using the PID to get you up to temp? Perhaps it can 'learn' your smoker along the way & better predict what it should do next.
 
I use my fireboard with my IVS. I do set my initial temp to about 25 degrees less than what I will want to cook at. Once it’s close to that temp I change it to my final temp.

It will keep it steady enough after that.

I find it better at maintaining temp than getting it to temp.
 
Have you gotten your smoker to hold temps without the fireboard?
 
I've got a large insulated cabinet smoker which I run with my CyberQ Cloud and (2) PitBull fans. My firebox has some expanded metal so that the charcoal is in a big "U" shape. The fans are aligned with each straight section of the "U" and I will light off the side closest to the fan with a propane torch. Usually this takes about 30 seconds, and I'll close the firebox door and turn on the CyberQ. I have 2 exhaust stacks (one left and one right) and I will open then about 30-40% of the way, set my desired cooking temp on the CyberQ, and not touch it again...in my mind the whole point of a temp controller system is such that you allow for that system to control the temps.

With this setup I can easily cook at 200°-300° without any worries of massive temp spikes or anything of that nature. Usually once I get to temp it stays +/-5° for as long as I'm cooking...often it's within +/-1°. I never mess with the fan speed rates or anything and I just allow for the temp controller system to do its thing.

So my advice would be this : set your exhaust stack where you want it while you're cooking, light off your coals, hook up your Fireboard, and walk away. Let the temp controller bring it up to your cooking temp, and see how it behaves.

If it can't get up to temp then maybe your PitViper fan is too weak...easy remedy is to pick up a PitBull fan if you have issues at this point. If your temps don't stabilize and they start to skyrocket then you'll want to close down your exhaust stack a bit and see if you can get it to stabilize. Obviously if you're at or over your temp and the fans are still blowing then you've got some kind of problem with the controllers algorithm.

I'm not sure about the Fireboard but my CyberQ will get the temps where I want them, and then it will go into a cycle of blowing for about 2 seconds every minute or so...kind of just "maintenance bursts" to keep everything right where I want it. I'm not sure how the Fireboard operates, but I've heard very good things about it, so I am willing to assume that it's capable of holding even temps.

Using this method I get a steady stream of thin, blue smoke very similar to my offset. I will use the same wood splits I'm using for my offsets, but I'll split the wood down pretty narrow so it's kind of like a small Red Bull can size...line the top of charcoal on the straight parts of the "U" shape in the firebox and I'm good to go. I hope this helps.

For reference my cooker is a Large model Spicewine Ironworks. (one on the left in the pic...notice the (2) intake vents...I have a PitBull fan at each of those intakes)
 
Thanks for the feedback so far folks. Some answers for all your questions.

1. Yes, I've run the pit by itself. It usually takes a little bit to get dialed in to where it doesn't slowly drift, but yes typically I can run it off manual control.

2. I have not tried starting it up with the FB. I used a Guru Ultra Q originally and started it up and watched it soar past 250 to 273 before I cut it off. I haven' tried to start it up off a controller since then

3. Yes, the FB has logic that tries to intelligently sense approach velocity and cut back on fan output so that it can smoothly approach the setpoint.

5. Yes, I'm sure the Pit Viper fan can handle this pit. For reference, my WSM 22 runs on a Delta 6.5CFM fan that's capped to 50% -- 3.25cfm. This pit, while somewhat larger, is insulated, so I have no doubt that 10CFM will do the job. What I'm afraid of is that using too high a fan output is resulting in an overlit coal bed and a later surge.

Max fan output and exhaust vent position are the 2 things that will make or break this setup from what I can tell.
 
nickmv said:
What max fan speed do you go with? I've got dividers I've and have tried using them but haven't tried the exhaust vent control method after dialing in.

So you let the Fireboard start the pit too? Where is your snake's start point relative to the vent that has the blower?
Click to expand...


Yes, the Fireboard has the helm as soon as I light the coals. I start the "snake" in the front right corner of the charcoal basket/drawer. I leave the Pit Viper gate fully open and the Fireboard controls the fan speed. The only time that I would partially close the Pit Viper gate is when the Fireboard shuts the Pit Viper down and there is still too much air coming into the smoker from the chimney draft effect. The fire in that case burns too hot even though the Fireboard controller is trying to reduce the air intake. That only happened to me once when I was trying to maintain 225°.

I didn't explain the exhaust vent very well. The Fireboard controls the smoker temperature. I start with the exhaust about 1/4 open to let the pit come up to temp and hopefully line out at the set temp. If the Fireboard seems to be struggling to bring the pit up to set temp, I open the vent a little. if the pit temp is overshooting the set temp by more than 25°, I close the exhaust vent a little. I like to keep the exhaust open as far as possible while the Fireboard can maintain control.

My preferred cooking range is 250 for low and slow and 350 or greater for chicken. The Fireboard does a good job in that range with the above method. I think yours will work as well when you discover the right setup.

Sorry it has taken so long to reply. It has been a busy day.
 
willsands said:
Yes, the Fireboard has the helm as soon as I light the coals. I start the "snake" in the front right corner of the charcoal basket/drawer. I leave the Pit Viper gate fully open and the Fireboard controls the fan speed. The only time that I would partially close the Pit Viper gate is when the Fireboard shuts the Pit Viper down and there is still too much air coming into the smoker from the chimney draft effect. The fire in that case burns too hot even though the Fireboard controller is trying to reduce the air intake. That only happened to me once when I was trying to maintain 225°.

I didn't explain the exhaust vent very well. The Fireboard controls the smoker temperature. I start with the exhaust about 1/4 open to let the pit come up to temp and hopefully line out at the set temp. If the Fireboard seems to be struggling to bring the pit up to set temp, I open the vent a little. if the pit temp is overshooting the set temp by more than 25°, I close the exhaust vent a little. I like to keep the exhaust open as far as possible while the Fireboard can maintain control.

My preferred cooking range is 250 for low and slow and 350 or greater for chicken. The Fireboard does a good job in that range with the above method. I think yours will work as well when you discover the right setup.

Sorry it has taken so long to reply. It has been a busy day.
Click to expand...

No worries, I appreciate the detailed info. The one thing I'm curious about --

1. Did you reduce the max fan output on your Pit Viper, or are you letting it blow the full 10cfm?

2. is your fan blowing air over the hot coals towards the unlit coals, or the other way around?

Here's my setup:
jQ6pTAa.jpg
 
I bought an FB2X thinking that I could control the PID functions independently ( their literature alluds to this ability). It does not allow individual PID adjustments and on an insulated cabinet it is not the best choice— I returned it. The flywheel effect inherent in an insulated cabinet causes overshoot and lag times in temperature control on pre-programmed controllers.

The only unit I could find that allows you to customize the PID is the Auber 2615. When I set the "D" down to about 25-30, it will maintain about +or- 5° from set point. I usually just start the cook with the usual 1/2 chimney of charcoal, and with the fan as the only air source, I am up to temp in about 30-45 minutes.

My only problem with the Auber was maintaining the wifi connection, which is why I tried the FBX2. I seem to have solved that problem on the Auber, so I am sticking with it.

The Auber does require a bit more time to learn its operation than some others, but it really performs well once you learn how to use it.
 
Looked back through my sessions and didn’t really have many long cooks for a while.

My last cook I did chicken and it kept my smoker within 8 degrees Of 325 for the 2 hours I needed. The waves were actually getting tighter towards the end, too.

I think it maintains higher temp cooks easier.
 
nickmv said:
No worries, I appreciate the detailed info. The one thing I'm curious about --

1. Did you reduce the max fan output on your Pit Viper, or are you letting it blow the full 10cfm?

2. is your fan blowing air over the hot coals towards the unlit coals, or the other way around?

Here's my setup:
jQ6pTAa.jpg
Click to expand...
I leave the gate on the Pit Viper fully open virtually all of the time. If the Fireboard turns the fan off to reduce the pit temperature and there is still too much air flowing through the smoker (from convection air currents - hot air rising), the fire will burn too hot. The fan gate may be partially closed or the smoker exhaust vent opening may be decreased to reduce the air flow. This problem only occurs with low temp cooks (<225°) on my Battle Box with the Fireboard control.

The charcoal basket in the Battle Box is centered in the lower portion of the smoker. There is an air space all around the basket. I use a mirror image of the T dividers in your illustration and light the snake on the front right corner. The smoker's air supply enters at the middle of the right hand side of the smoker.

Controlling air flow is the "secret" for controlling pit temperature. I believe the better built cabinets eliminate leaks/air infiltration so that all of the combustion air comes through the control system; be that a valve or a smart controller. Setting the exhaust vent "in the ballpark" to start insures that there is adequate air flow to maintain the fire without allowing enough flow to permit the fire to "run away". Limiting the flame front to the confines of the snake channel also adds stability. The fire can burn faster to maintain the pit temperature, but it can't light the whole charcoal supply and spread like a forrest fire.
I said a few words that I wouldn't want my momma to hear during my initial attempt to use the Fireboard to control the pit temperature. A glass of beer and a "calm down" lecture to myself helped me understand how the system works. I'm convinced that your system will work well with the right setup. The Fireboard is a faithful and efficient fire manager.
 
willsands said:
I leave the gate on the Pit Viper fully open virtually all of the time. If the Fireboard turns the fan off to reduce the pit temperature and there is still too much air flowing through the smoker (from convection air currents - hot air rising), the fire will burn too hot. The fan gate may be partially closed or the smoker exhaust vent opening may be decreased to reduce the air flow. This problem only occurs with low temp cooks (<225°) on my Battle Box with the Fireboard control.

The charcoal basket in the Battle Box is centered in the lower portion of the smoker. There is an air space all around the basket. I use a mirror image of the T dividers in your illustration and light the snake on the front right corner. The smoker's air supply enters at the middle of the right hand side of the smoker.

Controlling air flow is the "secret" for controlling pit temperature. I believe the better built cabinets eliminate leaks/air infiltration so that all of the combustion air comes through the control system; be that a valve or a smart controller. Setting the exhaust vent "in the ballpark" to start insures that there is adequate air flow to maintain the fire without allowing enough flow to permit the fire to "run away". Limiting the flame front to the confines of the snake channel also adds stability. The fire can burn faster to maintain the pit temperature, but it can't light the whole charcoal supply and spread like a forrest fire.
I said a few words that I wouldn't want my momma to hear during my initial attempt to use the Fireboard to control the pit temperature. A glass of beer and a "calm down" lecture to myself helped me understand how the system works. I'm convinced that your system will work well with the right setup. The Fireboard is a faithful and efficient fire manager.
Click to expand...

Thanks, this is very helpful. Last thing, and I apologize for being persistent here, but are you turning down the fan speed on your Pit Viper in the controller settings?? I understand you're keeping the damper on the fan itself open usually, but most controllers have a max fan speed % setting as well that allows you to keep the fan from blasting too much air and stirring up ashes and causing an overdraft effect.

Are you just letting it run at up to 100% speed for max output, or are you capping it much lower?
 
Do your fans not have a damper that closes the intake when it isn’t running?
 
Hmm now I'm curious. I found this video on YT, from the BBQ Lab, saying FB2 it shouldn't be used to bring the pit up to temp, but rather to maintain after the fact. ~10 min into the video for timestamp. A guy in the comments mentioned the FB1 could do that. The channel clarifies with the following:

I talked with customer support about it, and they told me that it wasn’t designed to bring it up from cold, so I agree that it’s weird. I’ve tried it twice now, and both times it overshot by more than 100 degrees and I shut it down. I guess I could try again and see if it comes back down over time, but I haven’t had any luck and customer support told me it wasn’t designed for that, so here we are. I will say though that I used it on a smoked meatloaf last night at 300 degrees, and it held that 300 between 298 and 302 for over 2 hours. I was really impressed with its ability to stay tight on temp.
Click to expand...

Does that help at all?

Its strange they would abandon functionality in the 2nd gen like that if it is true.
 
boogiechillen said:
Do your fans not have a damper that closes the intake when it isn’t running?
Click to expand...

No, the Pit Viper does not do this. It has an adjustable damper. I have access to an Auber blower with swing gate, but it's certainly not ideal compared to a Guru-standard setup.
 
onemanlan said:
Hmm now I'm curious. I found this video on YT, from the BBQ Lab, saying FB2 it shouldn't be used to bring the pit up to temp, but rather to maintain after the fact. ~10 min into the video for timestamp. A guy in the comments mentioned the FB1 could do that. The channel clarifies with the following:



Does that help at all?

Its strange they would abandon functionality in the 2nd gen like that if it is true.
Click to expand...

Sounds suspect, and here's why -- the FB1 and FB2 use the same algorithm for control. You get to choose which version from several iterations over time, but they share the same blower / "Drive" algorithm. Some things I'm gonna try soon are:

1. Starting my pit with the FB from both a half chimney as well as 2-3 lit coals

2. Replacing my 2" height firebox dividers with 3" models to see if there's an issue with cross-lighting my charcoal snake.
 
nickmv said:
Sounds suspect, and here's why -- the FB1 and FB2 use the same algorithm for control. You get to choose which version from several iterations over time, but they share the same blower / "Drive" algorithm. Some things I'm gonna try soon are:

1. Starting my pit with the FB from both a half chimney as well as 2-3 lit coals

2. Replacing my 2" height firebox dividers with 3" models to see if there's an issue with cross-lighting my charcoal snake.
Click to expand...

Fair points. I haven't used a Fireboard product. Thought the info might be relevant. He was using a Kamado style grill though. They have a tendency to retain heat and overshoot unless you're on top of it. I never used a PID on my KJ when I had one for that reason.
 
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