KCBS Next Steps/Goals/Focus ?!?!?!?

[Jorge]

Originally Posted by TBoneMac

I can tell you from a wannabe competitor's point of view exactly what is discouraging new team formation. These things greatly discourage me:



1. The un-level playing field when it comes to meat. Hell, I can't afford Wagyu briskets or Snake River Farms pork butts/ribs. The "Guinea Pig" contests seemed like a great idea, where all teams were on the same level playing field in terms of meat quality. But those contests seem to have gone by the way side, probably because top teams cried about not being able to use higher quality meat than most other teams could afford.

In actuality those contests probably gave the top teams an advantage, and most of them probably knew it. Give a top 10 team a skinny $ muscle and they'll find something good to turn in and/or won't even worry about it. Give that same butt to an average team and they may bomb the category before the meat ever hits the pit. I suspect the biggest issue was finding sponsors to donate meat, the added cost to buy meat if it wasn't donated, and the volunteer time required to sort the meat to level the playing field.

2. Stupid garnish. KCBS says it's "all about the meat", but it's really not. It's a lot about the garnish. Allowing people to pretty-up their boxes with garnish adds an unnecessary burden on cooks.

It's optional. I wouldn't recommend it but I know a few braver souls that have tried it and done OK. I know others that tried it once and got burned. Say it takes an hour, and costs $15-20 for greens... In comparison to the other expenses and the required time for everything else ata contest is it really a burden?

3. The way KCBS contests have gravitated toward producing BBQ that almost no one would want to cook/eat at home. I'm a (former) KCBS judge who simply got tired of eating over-salted, over-spiced, overly sweet, MSG-filled meat that would overpower most people's palate before they got done eating a meal. The "get the judges' attention with one bite" philosophy is a canker sore on the face of KCBS.

You know why cooks tend to turn that in? It wins.

I'd really love to compete, but the above three things give me great hesitation.

[Bill-Chicago]

I think the KCBS should focus on the "experience".

Forget about whether you came in DAL in any category, how was your overall experience?

Would bring in a lot more millennials.

Sure, I spent over $1,000 per contest and faced a ton of hurdles and scoring problems and politics and such, but the experience was great!

Make them feel good and they'll keep coming back!

Did you pull the trailer in with minimal effort? Give'm a trophy. Were you quiet by 11p so as not to bother other teams? Give'm a trophy. Turned in your boxes on time? Another trophy.

Focus on feelings, we need more of that in all facets of life, even BBQ!

[midwest_kc]

Originally Posted by Bill-Chicago

I think the KCBS should focus on the "experience".

Forget about whether you came in DAL in any category, how was your overall experience?

Would bring in a lot more millennials.

Sure, I spent over $1,000 per contest and faced a ton of hurdles and scoring problems and politics and such, but the experience was great!

Make them feel good and they'll keep coming back!

Did you pull the trailer in with minimal effort? Give'm a trophy. Were you quiet by 11p so as not to bother other teams? Give'm a trophy. Turned in your boxes on time? Another trophy.

Focus on feelings, we need more of that in all facets of life, even BBQ!

While I know this was tongue in cheek and meant in jest, I think there's some truth overall to the "experience" aspect of it. Not everyone is getting a call. Not everyone is going to cash a check. Not everyone deserves to. Everyone can have a good time, and the more that contests do to improve the experience of the cooks and public at an event, the more value people find in it, even if they're losing.

Going out and having some beers with your buddies while you play with fire and cook some meat (that when you started you know you ate the crap out of) has a certain amount of value. For a team, that might be $200-300.

If we assume that most newer teams are spending somewhere in the range of $500-600 on a contest ($250 entry fee, $200 Costco run (meat, pans, foil, etc), a few bags of charcoal, some wood and a cooler of beer), KCBS and the contests, who want and need new blood to come in and stick with it need to bridge that $400 gap. Larger prize pools is something I see discussed a lot. That would certainly help. Team dinner Friday night would add something.

Contests can get creative with different options, but if more value is created for the amateur cooks then more of them will start and stick with it because even if they're losing - it's worth it to them to keep going.

[tduffy]

Originally Posted by TBoneMac

I can tell you from a wannabe competitor's point of view exactly what is discouraging new team formation. These things greatly discourage me:



1. The un-level playing field when it comes to meat. Hell, I can't afford Wagyu briskets or Snake River Farms pork butts/ribs. The "Guinea Pig" contests seemed like a great idea, where all teams were on the same level playing field in terms of meat quality. But those contests seem to have gone by the way side, probably because top teams cried about not being able to use higher quality meat than most other teams could afford.



2. Stupid garnish. KCBS says it's "all about the meat", but it's really not. It's a lot about the garnish. Allowing people to pretty-up their boxes with garnish adds an unnecessary burden on cooks.


3. The way KCBS contests have gravitated toward producing BBQ that almost no one would want to cook/eat at home. I'm a (former) KCBS judge who simply got tired of eating over-salted, over-spiced, overly sweet, MSG-filled meat that would overpower most people's palate before they got done eating a meal. The "get the judges' attention with one bite" philosophy is a canker sore on the face of KCBS.


I'd really love to compete, but the above three things give me great hesitation.

I completely disagree that there is an un-level playing field due to meat. Prime briskets and commodity pork wins. Cook it right and it will score. The "guinea pig" style contests, the only one that has ever been successful are the ones BPS put on. Because you got quality meat sponsored. And even at that, it did not level the playing field, it just shuffled it. Just because everyone was cooking the same brand of meat didn't mean everyone gets the same quality. Some people get ribs with shiners and pork butts with gashes through the money muscle. How does that level the playing field? I find it funny that I hear people chatter about how meat provided contests will fix everything but we had one of those in my region and it failed because it couldn't get enough teams? Where was everyone at who was making noise that this is the solution to the problem? I didn't support it. They begged me to come several times. I flat out told them, I trim meat from the comfort of my kitchen at home. I'm not driving to a comp and spending money at it without leaving the house knowing I have the best stuff I can procure for that weekend. After all, this is a competition and I will take every advantage I can to put myself in a position to win whether it be high dollar meat or commodity meat.
These didn't go away because we "cried" about not using meat most other teams couldn't afford. Competition BBQ has never been cheap. Ever. Not at least if you come to win. You might want to analyze all of the costs associated with it before jumping in. If you cannot afford a wagyu brisket, you are really gonna cringe when you see the costs of everything else teams buy.


Which brings to the next point. Part of being a good cook is being able to select good meat. You are not being outspent at contests, you are being out worked. Forcing teams to cook provided meat takes away the cook's ability to select what they want in a piece of protein. This is the KCBS Master series. Maybe backyard contests would be better suited for teams that want this versus putting a handicap on everyone else?

Garnish:

It's optional. If you think it's "stupid" then don't use it. Actually it would be an UN-necessary burden on cooks to get rid of it. It keeps my meat in place where i put it, without it everything would move around and turn into a hot mess. Again, this is the master series, and we have appearance scores for a reason. A good cook can not only cook a good piece of protein but give a good presentation of it also. No different than a chef's plating at a restaurant. Since the legalization of Kale in KCBS it's not even an issue. I build 4 kale boxes in 25 minutes. It's not even a concern of mine. If it is to you, then maybe the backyard style contests are better suited for you?



3. We turn in the stuff we do because that's what scores. It's that simple. Competition BBQ isn't about what we want to cook and eat at home and it never has been. It's 2 different things. Cooking at home is backyard bbq. The "get the judges' attention with one bite" philosophy exists because judges only take one bite. What do you propose to change this? Last contest I had a judge talk to me after judging asking why teams are trying so hard to make their brisket taste so "beefy". My response was 3 words. Because. It. Wins.



I don't say this to be a jerk but I'm a straight forward person. Do you really want to compete? If so, these 3 things are quite petty in the grand scheme of things.

[Slamdunkpro]

Originally Posted by midwest_kc

While I know this was tongue in cheek and meant in jest, I think there's some truth overall to the "experience" aspect of it. Not everyone is getting a call. Not everyone is going to cash a check. Not everyone deserves to. Everyone can have a good time, and the more that contests do to improve the experience of the cooks and public at an event, the more value people find in it, even if they're losing.

Going out and having some beers with your buddies while you play with fire and cook some meat (that when you started you know you ate the crap out of) has a certain amount of value. For a team, that might be $200-300.

If we assume that most newer teams are spending somewhere in the range of $500-600 on a contest ($250 entry fee, $200 Costco run (meat, pans, foil, etc), a few bags of charcoal, some wood and a cooler of beer), KCBS and the contests, who want and need new blood to come in and stick with it need to bridge that $400 gap. Larger prize pools is something I see discussed a lot. That would certainly help. Team dinner Friday night would add something.

Contests can get creative with different options, but if more value is created for the amateur cooks then more of them will start and stick with it because even if they're losing - it's worth it to them to keep going.

^^This^^ When you boil it down it's why SCA is popular. It's not difficult to get $100 of "fun value" at an SCA event. $1000 wort of "fun value" is a higher bar.

[bpeyton89]

Originally Posted by tduffy

3. We turn in the stuff we do because that's what scores. It's that simple. Competition BBQ isn't about what we want to cook and eat at home and it never has been. It's 2 different things. Cooking at home is backyard bbq. The "get the judges' attention with one bite" philosophy exists because judges only take one bite. What do you propose to change this? Last contest I had a judge talk to me after judging asking why teams are trying so hard to make their brisket taste so "beefy". My response was 3 words. Because. It. Wins.

Couldn't agree with this more. We struggled a lot this year, aiming for what we thought was middle of the road flavor. Turns out if we want more than a bite or two of our meat when trying it, it's probably not salty enough for comp bbq. You have to amp up the flavor and pack a punch for a small bite. It's one bite bbq...

[Mike in Roseville]

Donate the uneaten food to a local food bank.

[egorham]

Originally Posted by Mike in Roseville

Donate the uneaten food to a local food bank.

I would love to be able to do this or do the "taste of BBQ" like has been done at the Oroville, CA event.

At Oroville the teams bring their uneaten food to a central location to be sold as samples similar to how team PC. The teams just need to slice the extra ribs, pull the extra pork and slice the extra brisket and bring it over in disposable pans ready to serve. They have a team of volunteers from the local area that sell the samples, at this event the money goes to local schools. This removes the biggest hassle PCing, needing to have a team of people to prepare and sell the samples.

Now the downside, at most events the health department would shut both of these down before it could get started. The teams would have to get a full, health department permitted setup (prep meat in a commercial kitchen, screened in cooking area, etc.).

[TBoneMac]

Originally Posted by Jorge

In actuality those contests probably gave the top teams an advantage, and most of them probably knew it. Give a top 10 team a skinny $ muscle and they'll find something good to turn in and/or won't even worry about it. Give that same butt to an average team and they may bomb the category before the meat ever hits the pit. I suspect the biggest issue was finding sponsors to donate meat, the added cost to buy meat if it wasn't donated, and the volunteer time required to sort the meat to level the playing field.

It's optional. I wouldn't recommend it but I know a few braver souls that have tried it and done OK. I know others that tried it once and got burned. Say it takes an hour, and costs $15-20 for greens... In comparison to the other expenses and the required time for everything else ata contest is it really a burden?

You know why cooks tend to turn that in? It wins.

I disagree that the top cooks are at an advantage if they are forced to cook the same quality meat as everyone else. It makes no sense to say otherwise.

Garnish is optional, yes. But judges have come to expect it. My KCBS CBJ class instructor spent 30 minutes on the types of garnish that are allowed. And it may cost only $20 per contest, but that's 20 wasted dollars, not to mention the wasted time shopping for it and using it. You know what would solve this garnish problem once and for all, guaranteed? If KCBS were to simply disallow garnish, as the SCA has. Pretty damn simple solution.

I would think cooks with at least some measure of self-respect would lament the fact that over-salted, over-spiced meat with loads of MSG has come to be the winning ticket. Malcom Reed at least once had the dignity to say that he was ashamed of the amount of salt he had to use to win an SCA contest.

[Jorge]

Originally Posted by TBoneMac

I disagree that the top cooks are at an advantage if they are forced to cook the same quality meat as everyone else. It makes no sense to say otherwise.

Garnish is optional, yes. But judges have come to expect it. My KCBS CBJ class instructor spent 30 minutes on the types of garnish that are allowed. And it may cost only $20 per contest, but that's 20 wasted dollars, not to mention the wasted time shopping for it and using it. You know what would solve this garnish problem once and for all, guaranteed? If KCBS were to simply disallow garnish, as the SCA has. Pretty damn simple solution.

I would think cooks with at least some measure of self-respect would lament the fact that over-salted, over-spiced meat with loads of MSG has come to be the winning ticket. Malcom Reed at least once had the dignity to say that he was ashamed of the amount of salt he had to use to win an SCA contest.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Cook a half dozen contests and let us know what you think then. Best of luck.

[gettinbasted]

Originally Posted by TBoneMac

I disagree that the top cooks are at an advantage if they are forced to cook the same quality meat as everyone else. It makes no sense to say otherwise.

It makes perfect sense if the bunch of whiners you’re talking about are better cooks than you are. (I don’t want to ruin the ending, but they’re much better cooks than you are)

[Michigan BBQ Fan]

Originally Posted by twatsonr1

Just a thought for growing the sport/community, why not partner up with the national bbq league and televise it!?!? They got good personalities. Run it like a new bbq pit master series. A lot of people have no idea that this is an actual sport. And there are tons of people who are competitive. Just my 2 cents.

Good thinking. It takes a LOT to pull off a good show with proper storylines etc. Maybe they could even lend the "brand" and connect a major sponsor to make this happen.

[Michigan BBQ Fan]

Originally Posted by TBoneMac

I can tell you from a wannabe competitor's point of view exactly what is discouraging new team formation. These things greatly discourage me:

1. The un-level playing field when it comes to meat. Hell, I can't afford Wagyu briskets or Snake River Farms pork butts/ribs. The "Guinea Pig" contests seemed like a great idea, where all teams were on the same level playing field in terms of meat quality. But those contests seem to have gone by the way side, probably because top teams cried about not being able to use higher quality meat than most other teams could afford.

2. Stupid garnish. KCBS says it's "all about the meat", but it's really not. It's a lot about the garnish. Allowing people to pretty-up their boxes with garnish adds an unnecessary burden on cooks.

3. The way KCBS contests have gravitated toward producing BBQ that almost no one would want to cook/eat at home. I'm a (former) KCBS judge who simply got tired of eating over-salted, over-spiced, overly sweet, MSG-filled meat that would overpower most people's palate before they got done eating a meal. The "get the judges' attention with one bite" philosophy is a canker sore on the face of KCBS.

I'd really love to compete, but the above three things give me great hesitation.

These are all good points and I'm sure sum up the feelings of more than just you when it comes to comps.

I understand the debate about meat and not sure what the solution is. If the top meat providers signed on as a sponsor and the meat was included in the comp fee, would that "fix" things? A lot of the "top" teams don't even pay for the meat...correct?!?!?

As far as garnish, I'm not sure how I feel. With BBQ there is a lot of "down" time...so...I feel it gives one something to do.

Lastly, if it scores good, cooks will repeat it. It kinda just is what it is. KCBS trains towards a "1 bite" process. If the judges training was adjusted do you think you would see a change in outcomes and processes? If judges were told "If the brisket tastes too much like 'roast beef' don't give it more than a 7." Not sure what the answer is.

[tduffy]

It's not going to fix things, it's just going to make entry fees go through the roof.


If you want to kill competition BBQ, just mandate master series contests be meat provided by the organizer and you'll lose a massive amount of cooks AND events overnight. Most cooks don't want it and most organizers don't want to deal with that.

[Bob in Corona]

Originally Posted by Michigan BBQ Fan

... KCBS trains towards a "1 bite" process. If the judges training was adjusted do you think you would see a change in outcomes and processes?

Nope... Just fuller judges... ;)

(24 "1 bite" samples are enough for me. Although, have been known to take a second bite or third to fine tune the score.)

Originally Posted by Michigan BBQ Fan

... If judges were told "If the brisket tastes too much like 'roast beef' don't give it more than a 7." ...

And if it tastes too much like pot roast ? ;)