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Competition BBQ *On Topic Only* Discussion regarding all aspects of Competition BBQ. Experiences competing or visiting, questions, getting started, Equipment, announcements of events, Results, Reviews, Planning, etc. Questions here will be responded to with competition BBQ in mind.


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Unread 06-18-2008, 04:04 PM   #1
thunter
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Default Fairness In KCBS Judging

Well, at the risk of creating a commotion I decided to write an article that expresses my concerns and observations about how KCBS judging is done. Please note that these are only my opinions; however, I am passionate about them.

Fairness In KCBS Judging
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Unread 06-18-2008, 04:37 PM   #2
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Tony: I read your article and you bring up some good points. My first suggestion is if you really feel this strongly about it, I would run for the board and see if you can make changes. I am all for making changes in this sport to make it better. I am not going to agree or disagree with what you have to say in your article other than you really bring up some great points. This I hope will make an interesting thread to read. You will get those that have discussed this a million times and say your crazy for even bringing this up "again" and you will have those that may comment and bring some interesting deabate to the table.
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Unread 06-18-2008, 04:42 PM   #3
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Great idea and well-presented!
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Unread 06-18-2008, 05:02 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Pulin' Pork View Post
Tony: I read your article and you bring up some good points. My first suggestion is if you really feel this strongly about it, I would run for the board and see if you can make changes. I am all for making changes in this sport to make it better. I am not going to agree or disagree with what you have to say in your article other than you really bring up some great points. This I hope will make an interesting thread to read. You will get those that have discussed this a million times and say your crazy for even bringing this up "again" and you will have those that may comment and bring some interesting deabate to the table.
Well, I got the idea of writing something down because I have been in the middle of some debate about how judges view entries. Maybe some good discussion will come out of this and hopefully, something that may benefit us all in the KCBS.
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Unread 06-18-2008, 05:05 PM   #5
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Well thought out and well written, some great points made. A good read.
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Unread 06-18-2008, 05:09 PM   #6
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Tony, I can see that you are serious about your ideas and imho you have some good ideas. But I also see some flaws in some of them too. Simple things like choosing what you put in the box. You can put in chicken feet if you want, pulled, pieces, whatever but it has to look better than the competitions. How are you gonna fit 6 whole chickens in that little box? Plus if you turn in whole or halves, which part does each Judge get? Leg or breast?

Garnish. I used to think it was a waste but now I think if done right, it looks better with it. JMHO

I dont feel that the system is that flawed now because the same folks usually win. That tells me what I really need to know.

Tony, that was a good read and I appreciate your opinion..
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Last edited by Dale P; 06-18-2008 at 05:37 PM.. Reason: oops, missed a word
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Unread 06-18-2008, 05:26 PM   #7
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Well first off there's no use in suggesting changing the scoring system unless you get a lot of new people on the BOD. Believe me people have been beating this dead horse for a long time now.

Besides I think your main complaint is not with the scoring system but how the judges apply it. So before throwing out the system lets try to educate people. Now that takes time and even then there will be wild cards out there. Always have been. Now if you can get judges to put aside personal preferences then that's great but I think unrealistic. Rather than cooking what you want why not try to cook what the judges might like. And pulled chicken isn't it.

Garnish - it's optional so why do teams spend 2-4 hours making all parsley boxes? Because when that lid opens and you have a full box of meat showcased with perfect garnish to frame the meat they say wow I want to eat that. It's a Kodak moment. And that means you already have above average to excellent scores for taste and tenderness. Or lay it flat in the bottom of the box so it's harder to see and has no contrast with the green color and see what you get. Question - why do high end restaurants use garnish on their plates?

And I do like your logic - well done - send it to the KCBS and see what happens. Posting on Forums doesn't get very far.
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Unread 06-18-2008, 06:13 PM   #8
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I like red, you like yellow. This becomes a lottery not a competition. What I think would be great is if everyone had to use the same meat, rub ingredients, and sauce ingredients and everything had to be made on sight. I love the people at competitions and the fun that is why we go, but there aren't true competitions, there are too many teams and judges. It is hard to say this teams is better than this teams when we had two different pallets eating our food and there are sixty teams. You make a great point, lets turn these into competitions not lotteries.

Entry fee should include
two racks
one brisket
one shoulder
dozen thighs

Basic rub ingredients, let teams mix and measure themselves.

Basic sauce ingedients and let the teams mix and measure themselves.

Limit the comps to 15 teams, this will show who can really BBQ.

If there are sixty teams that want to enter, make brackets and run four different comps at one sight.
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Unread 06-18-2008, 07:40 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OC PIG ASSASSINS View Post
I like red, you like yellow. This becomes a lottery not a competition. What I think would be great is if everyone had to use the same meat, rub ingredients, and sauce ingredients and everything had to be made on sight. I love the people at competitions and the fun that is why we go, but there aren't true competitions, there are too many teams and judges. It is hard to say this teams is better than this teams when we had two different pallets eating our food and there are sixty teams. You make a great point, lets turn these into competitions not lotteries.

Entry fee should include
two racks
one brisket
one shoulder
dozen thighs

Basic rub ingredients, let teams mix and measure themselves.

Basic sauce ingedients and let the teams mix and measure themselves.

Limit the comps to 15 teams, this will show who can really BBQ.

If there are sixty teams that want to enter, make brackets and run four different comps at one sight.

You cannot be serious?
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Unread 06-18-2008, 09:58 PM   #10
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Tony - Well thought out even if some agree that small tweaks might be necessary to tighten it up a bit..

Hopefully, time permits for you to submit this article for consideration to appear in the KCBS Bullsheet and National BBQ News. Although it may not have an immediate impact, sending along to the BOD of KCBS can't hurt either.
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Unread 06-18-2008, 09:59 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OC PIG ASSASSINS View Post
Limit the comps to 15 teams, this will show who can really BBQ.

If there are sixty teams that want to enter, make brackets and run four different comps at one sight.

I think I saw this episode of "Organizer's Worst Nightmares".
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Unread 06-18-2008, 10:16 PM   #12
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Well thought out and written Tony.

This speaks volumes:

Quote:
In other words, some judges score entries based on what the entry is not, instead of scoring the entry for what it is!
One thing that I have always thought is that there should be a requirement that to become
a judge, you have to have cooked at least one comp, maybe more.

It's a pet peeve of mine when I hear judges talking about things after the entries are scored
and cards turned in and you know right away that they have never cooked a comp because
they have no idea just how much money, hard work and time goes into getting that
box in front of them.
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Unread 06-18-2008, 10:26 PM   #13
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Is that much to much to ask, to cook?
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Unread 06-18-2008, 10:59 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OC PIG ASSASSINS View Post
Is that much to much to ask, to cook?
I don't think so. Not at all.

In my judging class, there was less than 50% that were cooks.
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Unread 06-18-2008, 11:59 PM   #15
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Tony,

I like what you wrote and agree with much of it... with one exception...

"garnish is 1) optional and 2) used to help score an entry “up”, not to score it “down”"

I've seen boxes where the bbq was obscured by the garnish. When I have a hard time seeing the meat because of the garnish - that is a negative - and likely to be scored down.

Garnish or not, I don't care but does the garnish enhance or hide the meat?
Sauce or not, I don't care but does the sauce enhance or hide the flavor of the meat?

Scott
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