The BBQ BRETHREN FORUMS.


Forum Portal Recipes Smoke Signals Magazine Welocme Merchandise Associations Purchase Subscription Brethren Banners
Go Back   The BBQ BRETHREN FORUMS. > Discussion Area > Q-talk

Notices

Q-talk *ON TOPIC ONLY* QUALITY ON TOPIC discussion of Backyard BBQ, grilling, Equipment and just outdoor cookin' in general, hints, tips, tricks & techniques, success, failures... but stay on topic. And watch for that hijacking.


Reply
Thread Tools
Unread 03-02-2008, 12:57 PM   #76
bigabyte
somebody shut me the fark up.

 
bigabyte's Avatar
 
Join Date: 05-10-06
Location: Overland Fark, KS
Downloads: 1
Uploads: 1
Default

All, I shoudl have mentioned that I tried brining a whole butt a couple years back. I brined it for 48 hours an d found it only penetrated about 1.5 inches into the meat. The only reason I think it worked this time was becuase I had quartered the butts, and there were no pieces over 3 inches thick. So the strong brine I made was able to penetrate thoroughly. The brine water when I drained it was a lovely pink color, and the meat tasted a little hammy and the flavor was ehanced from the salt. It was good. However, trying to brine a whole butt will probably just disappoint you.

These pieces were too small to deal with injecting in my opinion and is why I brined them instead. I think injecting a butt is a way to "brine" quickly. It gets a salty-solution with optional flavors added down into the meat quickly making it more moist in the end. I'm of the opinion that injecting a solution with salt into the meat gives you the benefit of brining by making the proteins wrap around the water molecules in the inject solution and trapping them in the meat while it cooks, the same as brining, except you are increasing the initial surface are the solution is exposed to by putting it inside the meat as opposed to waiting for it to fully absorb.

My brining in this experiment was basically similar to an inject in my opinion, but without any sweet or flavorings added. You can add those to brines as easily as to an inject, and a lot of people do.
__________________
Chris Baker
Join the BBQ Brethren Throwdowns
Sole recipient of the Silverfinger and fingerlickin Awards!
Yes, I own a whole bunch of BBQ crap also.
Certified MOINK Baller & IMBAS Certified MOINK Ball Judge #0003 - Get your MOINK Certification today!
The Secret Squirrel Society doesn't exist - Zero Club member
bigabyte is offline   Reply With Quote


Unread 03-02-2008, 01:11 PM   #77
BAG3
Knows what a fatty is.
 
Join Date: 04-23-04
Location: Lake Creek, TX The Great Mud Sucking NorthEast
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Great job! Still think you should have tried the cherry ash rubbed one. Could of been interesting flavor and it has loads of potassium! Can't imagine how much ash I ate as a boy scout after dropping my meal onto the coals accidently.
__________________
"Women and cats will do as they please.
Men and dogs should relax and get used to that idea."
Robert Heinlien
BAG3 is offline   Reply With Quote


Unread 03-02-2008, 01:48 PM   #78
K I N G P I N
Full Fledged Farker
 
K I N G P I N's Avatar
 
Join Date: 01-25-08
Location: West Islip, NY
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Good job Chris.
__________________
WEBER SMOKEY MOUNTAIN
GOSM
FOUR SEASONS GASSER
Yellow thermapen
AKA-Crusty DippinTush


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...pinsgasser.jpg
K I N G P I N is offline   Reply With Quote


Unread 03-03-2008, 10:23 AM   #79
gotwood
is one Smokin' Farker
 
Join Date: 01-01-08
Location: Homer Glen, IL
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

I know I dont like the hammy flavor from my Ribs that are "enhanced"
so I probally wouldnt like a butt brined.
gotwood is offline   Reply With Quote


Unread 03-03-2008, 10:31 AM   #80
Pipin' Pig
Full Fledged Farker
 
Pipin' Pig's Avatar
 
Join Date: 08-25-07
Location: Charleston, SC
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

This expierement has inspired me. I have to do two buts for a church function this weekend. I think I am going to inject, slather and rub them both the same and then try and test the 140 degree hypothesis.

You know, the theory that once the meat reaches 140 degrees you don't get any more smoke penetration? I will start one in the oven and the other on the smoker and then when the oven butt reached 140, transfer it to the smoker.

This should be sufficient validation don't you think? Given both buts will be blended together for serving I should not have that much issue taste wise.

I also recall that there is one theory that you get no more smoke penetration after the first 3 hours. I may try this the next time I cook and start a butt in the oven and then add it to the smoker after 3 or 4 hours of cooking.
__________________
Derrick "Mor Muc" Russ
Charleston, SC
The Citadel co '93
Bag piper
Cookers:
- Stumps 223
- CB Bandera
- Jen Aire Gas Grill
Pipin' Pig is offline   Reply With Quote


Unread 03-03-2008, 10:39 AM   #81
paydabill
is one Smokin' Farker
 
paydabill's Avatar
 
Join Date: 05-21-07
Location: Moberly, Mo
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Very interesting post.
__________________
Paydabill
Lit & Loaded BBQ
I remember a day when I hated pellets -
2 pellet cookers latter!
CBJ - love judging
KCBS - member for 4 years
MOFO Chapter

Super fast - BLUE Thermopen
paydabill is offline   Reply With Quote


Unread 03-03-2008, 10:42 AM   #82
bigabyte
somebody shut me the fark up.

 
bigabyte's Avatar
 
Join Date: 05-10-06
Location: Overland Fark, KS
Downloads: 1
Uploads: 1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by meanmna View Post
This expierement has inspired me. I have to do two buts for a church function this weekend. I think I am going to inject, slather and rub them both the same and then try and test the 140 degree hypothesis.

You know, the theory that once the meat reaches 140 degrees you don't get any more smoke penetration? I will start one in the oven and the other on the smoker and then when the oven butt reached 140, transfer it to the smoker.

This should be sufficient validation don't you think? Given both buts will be blended together for serving I should not have that much issue taste wise.

I also recall that there is one theory that you get no more smoke penetration after the first 3 hours. I may try this the next time I cook and start a butt in the oven and then add it to the smoker after 3 or 4 hours of cooking.
Sounds great! Let us know how that works out.
__________________
Chris Baker
Join the BBQ Brethren Throwdowns
Sole recipient of the Silverfinger and fingerlickin Awards!
Yes, I own a whole bunch of BBQ crap also.
Certified MOINK Baller & IMBAS Certified MOINK Ball Judge #0003 - Get your MOINK Certification today!
The Secret Squirrel Society doesn't exist - Zero Club member
bigabyte is offline   Reply With Quote


Unread 03-03-2008, 11:27 AM   #83
Divemaster
somebody shut me the fark up.
 
Divemaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-23-07
Location: North Side of Chicago Illinois
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Chris,

Thanks for the experiment... I've been looking forward to the results all weekend!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by meanmna View Post
This expierement has inspired me. I have to do two buts for a church function this weekend. I think I am going to inject, slather and rub them both the same and then try and test the 140 degree hypothesis.

You know, the theory that once the meat reaches 140 degrees you don't get any more smoke penetration? I will start one in the oven and the other on the smoker and then when the oven butt reached 140, transfer it to the smoker.

This should be sufficient validation don't you think? Given both buts will be blended together for serving I should not have that much issue taste wise.

I also recall that there is one theory that you get no more smoke penetration after the first 3 hours. I may try this the next time I cook and start a butt in the oven and then add it to the smoker after 3 or 4 hours of cooking.
I think you may be mistaking the penetration of smoke with the generation of the smoke ring... While I know (by Chris's results) that the smoke ring stops generating at ~140-145* internal, I don't believe that the smoke ever stops penetrating the meat.... Just MHO
__________________
Jeff
CBJ# 23376
Stockcar BBQ
Race Fast, Cook Slow, and Enjoy Life!
If it don't come off a smoker, it's just a side dish!

Lang 60 Patio (The Mistress), Black Stainless Lang 36 (Little Princess), Large BGE (Ramona), Big Green UDS (Cottage Cooker), Brinkman SnP Pro (Little Bubba-Retired), 8 Burner Gasser, 3 - 22.5" & 1 - 18" (circa 1975) Weber Grills, & a Weber Smoky Joe.
Divemaster is offline   Reply With Quote


Unread 03-03-2008, 11:39 AM   #84
Pipin' Pig
Full Fledged Farker
 
Pipin' Pig's Avatar
 
Join Date: 08-25-07
Location: Charleston, SC
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Divemaster View Post
Chris,

I think you may be mistaking the penetration of smoke with the generation of the smoke ring... While I know (by Chris's results) that the smoke ring stops generating at ~140-145* internal, I don't believe that the smoke ever stops penetrating the meat.... Just MHO


How do the result's of Chris' experiment show that the smoke ring stops at 140/145*? I don't see any correlation in his experiment to this theory.

And, BTW I am trying to test the ring, not the flavor. Although, I will have to try a taste test to see if there is any significant smoke flavor difference. I will be smoking with lump to which I add one large hickory chunk with every fuel addition.
__________________
Derrick "Mor Muc" Russ
Charleston, SC
The Citadel co '93
Bag piper
Cookers:
- Stumps 223
- CB Bandera
- Jen Aire Gas Grill
Pipin' Pig is offline   Reply With Quote


Unread 03-03-2008, 12:29 PM   #85
Divemaster
somebody shut me the fark up.
 
Divemaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-23-07
Location: North Side of Chicago Illinois
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by meanmna View Post
How do the result's of Chris' experiment show that the smoke ring stops at 140/145*? I don't see any correlation in his experiment to this theory.

And, BTW I am trying to test the ring, not the flavor. Although, I will have to try a taste test to see if there is any significant smoke flavor difference. I will be smoking with lump to which I add one large hickory chunk with every fuel addition.
I'm sorry I miss-read Chris's original statement as to the 140-145* internal in relation to the formation of the smoke ring... I'm sure that a search in this site may offer you more than a little bit of information on this question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meanmna View Post
This expierement has inspired me. I have to do two buts for a church function this weekend. I think I am going to inject, slather and rub them both the same and then try and test the 140 degree hypothesis.

You know, the theory that once the meat reaches 140 degrees you don't get any more smoke penetration? I will start one in the oven and the other on the smoker and then when the oven butt reached 140, transfer it to the smoker.

This should be sufficient validation don't you think? Given both buts will be blended together for serving I should not have that much issue taste wise.

I also recall that there is one theory that you get no more smoke penetration after the first 3 hours. I may try this the next time I cook and start a butt in the oven and then add it to the smoker after 3 or 4 hours of cooking.
The confusion I am having is that in the above quote, you were talking about 'Smoke Penetration' and not smoke ring formation. In MHO, 'Smoke Penetration' cannot be alway's determined by the smoke ring (proven by the fact that Chris was able to create a smoke ring in an oven using a chemical reaction).

Quote:
Originally Posted by meanmna View Post
How do the result's of Chris' experiment show that the smoke ring stops at 140/145*? I don't see any correlation in his experiment to this theory.

And, BTW I am trying to test the ring, not the flavor. Although, I will have to try a taste test to see if there is any significant smoke flavor difference. I will be smoking with lump to which I add one large hickory chunk with every fuel addition.
Again, in your original quote, you stated 'Smoke Penetration' and not 'Smoke Ring' formation.

To me, 'Smoke Penetration' is a flavoring (similar to a spice that I include in a rub or injection). While I can produce a smoke ring to say 1/4 or 3/8's of an inch depth, it is MHO that the smoke flavor continues penetrating the meat to a much deeper depth. While I agree that the smoke ring has a stronger smoke flavor, I feel that the flavor of the smoke continues into the meat long after after the smoke ring has stopped forming.
__________________
Jeff
CBJ# 23376
Stockcar BBQ
Race Fast, Cook Slow, and Enjoy Life!
If it don't come off a smoker, it's just a side dish!

Lang 60 Patio (The Mistress), Black Stainless Lang 36 (Little Princess), Large BGE (Ramona), Big Green UDS (Cottage Cooker), Brinkman SnP Pro (Little Bubba-Retired), 8 Burner Gasser, 3 - 22.5" & 1 - 18" (circa 1975) Weber Grills, & a Weber Smoky Joe.
Divemaster is offline   Reply With Quote


Unread 03-03-2008, 12:33 PM   #86
Pipin' Pig
Full Fledged Farker
 
Pipin' Pig's Avatar
 
Join Date: 08-25-07
Location: Charleston, SC
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

OK. Now I gotcha. My mistake. I was meaning penetration as to the formation of the ring. Not at to flavor.
__________________
Derrick "Mor Muc" Russ
Charleston, SC
The Citadel co '93
Bag piper
Cookers:
- Stumps 223
- CB Bandera
- Jen Aire Gas Grill
Pipin' Pig is offline   Reply With Quote


Unread 03-03-2008, 12:40 PM   #87
Divemaster
somebody shut me the fark up.
 
Divemaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-23-07
Location: North Side of Chicago Illinois
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by meanmna View Post
OK. Now I gotcha. My mistake. I was meaning penetration as to the formation of the ring. Not at to flavor.
All's good.... To be honest, I am curious as to how your experiment comes out... You may be re-writing BBQ Science!!!
__________________
Jeff
CBJ# 23376
Stockcar BBQ
Race Fast, Cook Slow, and Enjoy Life!
If it don't come off a smoker, it's just a side dish!

Lang 60 Patio (The Mistress), Black Stainless Lang 36 (Little Princess), Large BGE (Ramona), Big Green UDS (Cottage Cooker), Brinkman SnP Pro (Little Bubba-Retired), 8 Burner Gasser, 3 - 22.5" & 1 - 18" (circa 1975) Weber Grills, & a Weber Smoky Joe.
Divemaster is offline   Reply With Quote


Unread 03-03-2008, 12:46 PM   #88
Fatback Joe
is Blowin Smoke!

 
Fatback Joe's Avatar
 
Join Date: 01-07-08
Location: Memphis, TN
Downloads: 1
Uploads: 0
Default

FWIW Here is a pretty good (IMO) explanation on what is happening to form the "ring".

Nitrous oxide (NO), a gas, is being produced by the combustion of the wood. Nitrous oxide is a relatively unstable molecule and in the presence of heat and oxygen is oxidized to nitrous dioxide (NO₂) As the NO₂ passes over the moist meat, it comes in contact with water forming nitric acid (HN03). The acid dissolves on the moist meat surface and forms a nitrate ion (N03). This nitrate then combines with the myoglobin (see above) forming a pink compound. This myoglobin – nitrate pigment is responsible for the “smoke ring” found in barbequed meats. The smoke ring is generally only ¼ to 3/8 of an inch think. The depth of the smoke ring is limited by the ability of the nitrate ion to penetrate the meat and by the temperature of the meat. Myoglobin proteins begin to denature (break apart) at about 120°F. Denatured myoglobin is no longer able to combine with the nitrate to for the pink pigment. It is important to remember that the formation of the smoke ring occurs early in the barbeque process and its maximum development requires plenty of oxygen (air) at the fire, moisture on the meat and relatively cool meat surface temperatures.
__________________
FBJ

WSM
Medium Spicewine
Stumps GF223
KCBS, NEBS Member
Fatback Joe is offline   Reply With Quote


Unread 03-03-2008, 02:17 PM   #89
bigabyte
somebody shut me the fark up.

 
bigabyte's Avatar
 
Join Date: 05-10-06
Location: Overland Fark, KS
Downloads: 1
Uploads: 1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatback Joe View Post
FWIW Here is a pretty good (IMO) explanation on what is happening to form the "ring".

Nitrous oxide (NO), a gas, is being produced by the combustion of the wood. Nitrous oxide is a relatively unstable molecule and in the presence of heat and oxygen is oxidized to nitrous dioxide (NO₂) As the NO₂ passes over the moist meat, it comes in contact with water forming nitric acid (HN03). The acid dissolves on the moist meat surface and forms a nitrate ion (N03). This nitrate then combines with the myoglobin (see above) forming a pink compound. This myoglobin – nitrate pigment is responsible for the “smoke ring” found in barbequed meats. The smoke ring is generally only ¼ to 3/8 of an inch think. The depth of the smoke ring is limited by the ability of the nitrate ion to penetrate the meat and by the temperature of the meat. Myoglobin proteins begin to denature (break apart) at about 120°F. Denatured myoglobin is no longer able to combine with the nitrate to for the pink pigment. It is important to remember that the formation of the smoke ring occurs early in the barbeque process and its maximum development requires plenty of oxygen (air) at the fire, moisture on the meat and relatively cool meat surface temperatures.
That's the same explanation I was keen to before the experiments, and still am in a way. There is a new angle to add however, and that is wood ash. I susuallyheard people say one or the other, Nitrous Oxide or Wood Ash being the cause for the smoke ring, but apparently it could be both. I know for a fact now that wood ash will cause a smoke ring. I still have no proof that Nitrous Oxide does, but that would be a whole different kind of experiment now wouldn't it?
__________________
Chris Baker
Join the BBQ Brethren Throwdowns
Sole recipient of the Silverfinger and fingerlickin Awards!
Yes, I own a whole bunch of BBQ crap also.
Certified MOINK Baller & IMBAS Certified MOINK Ball Judge #0003 - Get your MOINK Certification today!
The Secret Squirrel Society doesn't exist - Zero Club member
bigabyte is offline   Reply With Quote


Unread 03-03-2008, 03:04 PM   #90
Fatback Joe
is Blowin Smoke!

 
Fatback Joe's Avatar
 
Join Date: 01-07-08
Location: Memphis, TN
Downloads: 1
Uploads: 0
Default

yeah, I would guess that the wood ash starts to cure the meat giving it the pink color, just like tender quick, insta cure etc. Might take some wood ash, put it on the meat, refrigerate and check it from time to time and see if the you are getting the "ring".

Just a guess.
__________________
FBJ

WSM
Medium Spicewine
Stumps GF223
KCBS, NEBS Member
Fatback Joe is offline   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
Experiment, Mad Science Experiment, smoke rings

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Mad Science Experiment - Ingredients in Rubs/Slathers bigabyte Q-talk 16 10-22-2011 09:42 AM
Mad Science Experiment - Spam bigabyte Q-talk 53 07-15-2011 08:00 AM
Mad Science Experiment - Fatties bigabyte Q-talk 28 02-03-2008 11:17 AM
Mad Science Experiment - Burning Ingredients bigabyte Q-talk 11 01-14-2008 10:39 PM
Mad Science Experiment - Salt vs MSG bigabyte Q-talk 2 07-04-2006 07:44 AM

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Loading



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:48 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise v2.6.0 Beta 4 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
2003 -2012 © BBQ-Brethren Inc. All rights reserved. All Content and Flaming Pig Logo are registered and protected under U.S and International Copyright and Trademarks. Content Within this Website Is Property of BBQ Brethren Inc. Reproduction or alteration is strictly prohibited.
no new posts