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Q-talk *ON TOPIC ONLY* QUALITY ON TOPIC discussion of Backyard BBQ, grilling, Equipment and just outdoor cookin' in general, hints, tips, tricks & techniques, success, failures... but stay on topic. And watch for that hijacking.


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Unread 06-14-2014, 11:22 AM   #16
Hawg Father of Seoul
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These threads make me a little sad.

When I was in a dealership, I bought Snapon tools because I am hard on tools (still have them, do not regret getting them). When I went to work in a kitchen I bought a couple nice knives and absolutely destroyed them.

Now I buy Victorinox because they are good enough to do the job, I can quickly sharpen on cheap sharpeners, if I lose them it is okay, and if I destroy them it does not hurt my feeling.

If Snapon made a knife..........
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Unread 06-14-2014, 11:28 AM   #17
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I'm not sure if they ship to the USA, but for anyone in Europe interested in some cheap Japanese steel - http://www.knivesandtools.co.uk/en/c...hen-knives.htm

This is my Damast series santoku



A steal at $82/£48. Edit - they do ship to the US
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Unread 06-14-2014, 03:19 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwfisk View Post
Thanks for the post buccs, very informative discussion.



Well, I guess this is pretty much true for any knife or anything with a cutting edge. I've been hand sharpening with Japanese ceramic wet stones for a little better than a year now (certainly not an expert) but it seems to me certain steel is more conducive to this kind of sharpening than others. I think I'm seeing higher quality knives sharpen better and certainly hold their edge better.

Am I assuming correctly these knives and the hand sharpening technology go hand in hand?


One thing that is definetely true, after spending 30-60 minutes on a knife to get it acceptable edge, I damn sure take better care of them than I used to.
Your observation is correct, but, the reason has less to do with convergent technology and more to do with the characteristics of the steel that was used to make the knife. A given steel will have varying characteristics, and the design of the knife is less important than the steel used to create the knife. High carbon steels, with chrome and vanadium values sharpen more easily on hand stones, than stainless or higher chrome and vanadium blades. They will also take a more acute edge. This is the key to the feel of Japanese blades.

There are equally refined European blades, and actually, equally specialized ones, but, far fewer as the method of preparing foods has put a premium on single knife usage. Because the Japanese remain, with the exception of Santoku, adherents to the idea of specialized knives, the materials chosen by knife designers remains focused on edge quality and not edge durability. One of the primary reasons I do not let friends use my Japanese knives is that they will use very delicate blade profiles to cut bone or chop on things, this can permanently ruin a Japanese knife.

As to the Global issue, you cannot re-profile a Japanese knife, one run through a Western sharpener and the edge is badly ruined. Once done, that knife will need to be repaired by a skilled hand to reset the edge. The angles are just too different. I hand sharpen my sister's Global whenever I get the change, that thing will split hairs. I don't much care for Globals steel, but, it can be a great cutting edge.
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Unread 06-14-2014, 05:57 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YetiDave View Post
Japanese knives are no better than a butter knife if you can't sharpen them though. There's no point spending hundreds of dollars on a great Japanese knife if you're incapable of maintaining it. If you can't sharpen knives then just learn
Fixed that for you!

Stop wishing it was easier, and start wishing you were better.
If I could learn to use whetstones at the age of five, then any of us can learn.

I find that quiet time maintaining blades to be therapeutic.
Also, if you develop good habits, you regularly spend a very short time on this.
The new hi tech stones are amazing, just half a dozen strokes and you are done.

Thanks for the excellent contributions so far in the thread!
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Unread 06-14-2014, 06:00 PM   #20
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I ended up with one Global.
I don't like them, neither the steel or the handle to blade design.
The only positive is the slender blade and Japanese bevel, but that stainless steel is way too soft to be anything but a drama queen of a blade, always needing attention.

I guess that is one of the points, sharpen anything but when you sharpen great steel you get better performance and for far longer.
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Unread 06-14-2014, 06:34 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buccaneer View Post
Fixed that for you!

Stop wishing it was easier, and start wishing you were better.
If I could learn to use whetstones at the age of five, then any of us can learn.

I find that quiet time maintaining blades to be therapeutic.
Also, if you develop good habits, you regularly spend a very short time on this.
The new hi tech stones are amazing, just half a dozen strokes and you are done.

Thanks for the excellent contributions so far in the thread!
Already can! I just don't think they're such a good recommendation for your average user. Not to mention those whetstone get way expensive if you want to keep that laser edge
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Unread 06-14-2014, 07:00 PM   #22
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Quote:
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Already can! I just don't think they're such a good recommendation for your average user. Not to mention those whetstone get way expensive if you want to keep that laser edge
Ah Dave, that was the general "you"...not directed at yourself but people interested in knives in general.

The stone may be good news these days.

http://japanesechefsknife.com/WhetSt...html#Whetstone

Are you locked in to the knives pictured?
Coz I am talking generally, the principle involved.
I could post pics of my Japanese Gyuto chefs knife but I thought everyone would get the point?
Maybe I should?



Lazy way!^^^
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Unread 06-14-2014, 08:49 PM   #23
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I have a lot of different knives. Some for ME and some for everyone else.

The knives I have that are of the japanese variety are Tojiro and I am VERY happy with them. Are there other much more expensive knives that I lust after? Of course there are, but I have found that the Tojiros come pretty close to the limits of diminishing returns when it comes to japanese blades. There are better but the price ramps up at such a steep rate I can't justify it.

If I still lived alone I'd have a nice set of high carbon steel knives. But lets just say I go without to avoid that argument. Hehe
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Unread 06-14-2014, 11:23 PM   #24
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3 generations.

The edge is due for a touch-up.
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Unread 06-15-2014, 12:59 AM   #25
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Buccs good thread for discussion. The Japanese have such specialized knives that it is incredible. I am a relatively noob compared to you foodies but I totally appreciate the specialty knives that are offered by the Japanese and some other fine knife mfg's such as wusthof and others. I love to sharpen them but I like that kind of stuff :)
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Unread 06-15-2014, 01:11 AM   #26
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Great looking knifes , which knife maker are they from ?
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Unread 06-15-2014, 02:46 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dadsr4 View Post
3 generations.

The edge is due for a touch-up.

They made a film about you didn't they?
The Shining....
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Unread 06-15-2014, 03:03 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martyleach View Post
Buccs good thread for discussion. The Japanese have such specialized knives that it is incredible. I am a relatively noob compared to you foodies but I totally appreciate the specialty knives that are offered by the Japanese and some other fine knife mfg's such as wusthof and others. I love to sharpen them but I like that kind of stuff :)
It's great to get positive feedback Marty, thanks.

It's very humbling to look at the long wall display of one of these Knife and tool shops in Japan and walk along realizing I recognize 3 dozen blades...and no idea about the other thousands!
You probably know, the woodworking tool range is huge!
More humbling to be in a group of 40 people at a knife show in Seki, and realize that I am sure I can use knives both in the kitchen and in nature and they can't, they still know a ridiculous amount more than I about every facet of knives, steels, processes and uses.
I'm just some fanboy schmuck who waves them around in kitchen and bush.
BUT....that's how I became a fan.
Superlative!
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Unread 06-15-2014, 06:18 AM   #29
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Nice gyuto! And those stones aren't badly priced either, but I just ordered a Lansky delux system. I've got a few knives that need reprofiling (including that santoku - it's a double bevel) and I wanna keep the accuracy there
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Unread 06-15-2014, 09:01 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buccaneer View Post
It's great to get positive feedback Marty, thanks.

It's very humbling to look at the long wall display of one of these Knife and tool shops in Japan and walk along realizing I recognize 3 dozen blades...and no idea about the other thousands!
You probably know, the woodworking tool range is huge!
More humbling to be in a group of 40 people at a knife show in Seki, and realize that I am sure I can use knives both in the kitchen and in nature and they can't, they still know a ridiculous amount more than I about every facet of knives, steels, processes and uses.
I'm just some fanboy schmuck who waves them around in kitchen and bush.
BUT....that's how I became a fan.
Superlative!
I love the singular focus that is observed in many things in that culture. Knives are one, but the simplest things like rice making are taken to the finest detail and deepest respect. The OCPD in me REALLY likes this.


...On a side note OCPD is not to be confused with OCD. OCD is a problem that sometimes requires treatment. I'm OCPD.......it just means I'm an A-hole.
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