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Competition BBQ *On Topic Only* Discussion regarding all aspects of Competition BBQ. Experiences competing or visiting, questions, getting started, Equipment, announcements of events, Results, Reviews, Planning, etc. Questions here will be responded to with competition BBQ in mind.


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Unread 12-01-2013, 10:30 PM   #211
dmprantz
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To all the people who say that the rule was "crystal clear," and only cheaters try to bend it, was the old rule designed to allow people to clean out the connective tissue in a butt, isolating 3-4 distinct muscles, and cook it like a bloomin onion for later cutting? Was the rule intended to allow a person to isolate the money musle, leaving it attached by a 2 mm piece of connective tissue so that it can be sliced later on?

That's what people were doing with the old rule, and it doesn't sound much like real BBQ to me. I'm sure some people will continue to do all that with the new rule. For some reason, every time I ask this, no one defends the practice, even though every one knows it happens. Why don't people talk about that more? Oh yeah, now I remember....

dmp
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Unread 12-02-2013, 07:38 AM   #212
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Don't forget that "Pork" after trimming has to still meet what the BOD defined as "Pork" in the first line. So trimming off the MM and cooking just it is not legal.
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Unread 12-02-2013, 09:23 AM   #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmprantz View Post
To all the people who say that the rule was "crystal clear," and only cheaters try to bend it, was the old rule designed to allow people to clean out the connective tissue in a butt, isolating 3-4 distinct muscles, and cook it like a bloomin onion for later cutting? Was the rule intended to allow a person to isolate the money musle, leaving it attached by a 2 mm piece of connective tissue so that it can be sliced later on?

That's what people were doing with the old rule, and it doesn't sound much like real BBQ to me. I'm sure some people will continue to do all that with the new rule. For some reason, every time I ask this, no one defends the practice, even though every one knows it happens. Why don't people talk about that more? Oh yeah, now I remember....

dmp
I don't see where the new rule prohibits that practice as long as the muscles in the butts are attached to each other during the initial cooking process. The words "cooked whole" is not violated. However, if the intent of the BOD was for this practice to be banned, they did not do a good job of defining what "cooked whole" means.
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Unread 12-02-2013, 10:23 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by Funtimebbq View Post
The words "cooked whole" is not violated.
I agree that it's not cheating, and have never meant to imply that it was. Still, isn't the rule crystal clear? Aren't you supposed to buy a butt, perform minimal trimming, and cook it whole? Aren't muscles attached with token strings bent rules?

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Unread 12-02-2013, 01:09 PM   #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmprantz View Post
I agree that it's not cheating, and have never meant to imply that it was. Still, isn't the rule crystal clear? Aren't you supposed to buy a butt, perform minimal trimming, and cook it whole? Aren't muscles attached with token strings bent rules?

dmp
Bent maybe...but not broken.
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Unread 12-02-2013, 01:16 PM   #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmprantz View Post
I agree that it's not cheating, and have never meant to imply that it was. Still, isn't the rule crystal clear? Aren't you supposed to buy a butt, perform minimal trimming, and cook it whole? Aren't muscles attached with token strings bent rules?

dmp
You are right, it's not cheating, but maybe against the intent of the rule. The old rule didn't prevent it, and neither does this one. I'm not sure how you would write a clear, concise rule that prevented it.

I would love a Brethen poll on this - how many people really do it? The teams I know don't cook that way. You can cook a hot 'n fast whole butt in under 5 hours - what's the advantage to hanging a MM on a string?
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Unread 12-05-2013, 12:34 PM   #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CBQ View Post
You are right, it's not cheating, but maybe against the intent of the rule. The old rule didn't prevent it, and neither does this one. I'm not sure how you would write a clear, concise rule that prevented it.

I would love a Brethen poll on this - how many people really do it? The teams I know don't cook that way. You can cook a hot 'n fast whole butt in under 5 hours - what's the advantage to hanging a MM on a string?
Why not just say that only surface trimming is allowed, and that isolation of muscles or muscle groups is prohibited.

Or allow the crazy trimming, but require the butt to be tied into a solid mass with butcher string after trimming.
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Unread 12-05-2013, 01:53 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by loco_engr View Post
So whatever the Pork rule is in place in 2014, is it up to the table CBJ's
to look for, or does that happen before?
Thank You!
NO, it is NOT up to the table (TC or judges) to determine how the team actually cooked the pork - whole, partial, other...

This is a REP issue.
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Unread 12-05-2013, 03:02 PM   #219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMerrill View Post
The new pork rule: What does it really mean?

PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of four (4) pounds at time of inspection. After trimming, pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out), however, once cooked, it may be separated and returned to the cooker at the cook's discretion. It may be turned in chopped, pulled, chunked, sliced or a combination of any of those.

The final pork rule (2014) above may not mean what the BOD intended. We can argue our personal interpretation of the meaning of the words in the pork rule or use a crystal ball to interpret the BOD line of thinking, or can we.

To definitively decipher the rule, we must understand about creating rules and regulation specifically what do words mean. Simply, if a word is to be limited or defined in a manner different than found in commonly available dictionaries then the definition must be provided.

The words with the most discussion or “gray area” in their meanings are “trim” , “whole”, and “cooked”; none of which are defined in the rule(s). Therefore, a dictionary must be consulted.

From Merriam Webster:

Trim
verb

1) to cut (something) off something else
2) to remove (something) by cutting
3) to make (something) neat by cutting it
4) to make the size, amount, or extent of (something) smaller


Now we apply the four (4) definitions to the rule by substituting the meanings for the word “trimming”.

The rule: “After trimming, pork shall be cooked whole….”

“After cutting, pork shall be cooked whole….”
“After removing (something) by cutting, pork shall be cooked whole….”
“After making it neat by cutting, pork shall be cooked whole….”
“After making the size, amount, or extent smaller, pork shall be cooked whole….”


Whole
adjective

1) complete or full

2) not lacking or leaving out any part
2) having all the parts
3) not divided or cut into parts or pieces
4) great or large in size, extent, etc.

Referring to the sentence in the rule, “After trimming, pork shall be cooked whole”…... “Whole” is an adjective which qualifies a noun or pronoun in the same sentence. Therefore, we can conclude “whole” is referring to “pork” after the act of trimming.


cook
verb

1) to prepare for eating by a heating process
2) to go through the process of being cooked


The new pork rule when applying common meanings reads like this.

PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of four (4) pounds at time of inspection. After trimming (cutting, removing pieces by cutting, making neat by cutting, or making the size, amount, or extent smaller), pork shall be cooked (prepared for eating by heating above *145°) whole (trimmed pork) (bone in or bone out), however, once cooked (prepared for eating by heating above 145°)*, it may be separated and returned to the cooker at the cook's discretion. It may be turned in chopped, pulled, chunked, sliced or a combination of any of those."


*145° was added to further define “cooked” because 145° is the lowest temperature pork is considered safe to eat.

Much clearer now isn't it. Maybe not?


Is a pork collar legal?

No. Because pork collars are not defined as "Pork" in the rule even if they come from one of the parts of the shoulder. Refering to the
definition from the Pork Council, all parts contain a bone. Pork collars do not contain bones.

The rule.
"Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder weighing a minimum of four (4) pounds at time of inspection"


The Pork Council defines Pork shoulder as the top portion of the front leg of the hog. The terminology for pork shoulder can vary widely depending on the region. However, the lower ‘arm’ portion of the shoulder is most commonly called the arm Picnic. The upper part of the shoulder, often called the Boston Blade Roast (also known as Boston- style Butt), comes from the area near the loin and contains the shoulder blade bone.


Is a 4+ pound boneless Butt legal?


Yes, as long as the muscles around the bone are present.




After inspection can the Butt be trimmed down to the pork collar?


No. The rule allows trimming but after trimming it still has to meet the definition of PORK. Therefore, post trimmed pork should contain all the muscles of the inspected product.
This is the best explanation that covers word by word an explanation for any question, wordsmith change or rule bending that I have ever seen for anything... Read this and believe the intent of the KCBS BOD of the 2014 rule as intended...

I will take the KCBS BOD 2014 Pork Rule as written for each word and apply as a Rep at any contest I am privileged to represent for The Kansas Barbeque Society.

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