The BBQ BRETHREN FORUMS.


Forum Portal Recipes Smoke Signals Magazine Welocme Merchandise Associations Purchase Subscription Brethren Banners
Go Back   The BBQ BRETHREN FORUMS. > Discussion Area > Competition BBQ

Notices

Competition BBQ *On Topic Only* Discussion regarding all aspects of Competition BBQ. Experiences competing or visiting, questions, getting started, Equipment, announcements of events, Results, Reviews, Planning, etc. Questions here will be responded to with competition BBQ in mind.


Reply
Thread Tools
Unread 11-28-2013, 07:09 PM   #181
Smoke'n Ice
is one Smokin' Farker
 
Join Date: 05-08-09
Location: Plano, TX
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMerrill View Post
The new rule does not allow the money muscle or any muscle to be cooked by it self. Pork must be cooked whole, but does allow for separation after it is done.

First line of the rule defines what pork is.
After trimming it still has to meet the definition of pork.
Exactly where does it state this?
Smoke'n Ice is offline   Reply With Quote


Unread 11-28-2013, 07:11 PM   #182
Pappy Q
is one Smokin' Farker
 
Join Date: 04-08-10
Location: Elk Creek, KY
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MuleTuf View Post
it didn't allow cooking the money muscle by itself.
So........is it a MM category or a farking pork category?
Pappy Q is online now   Reply With Quote


Unread 11-28-2013, 07:22 PM   #183
musicmanryann
is One Chatty Farker

 
Join Date: 06-11-08
Location: Ames, Iowa
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smoke'n Ice View Post
Exactly where does it state this?
The first part of the rule defines what 'PORK" is. It then goes on to say, after trimming, "PORK" shall be cooked whole. I'd say it says it right there exactly.
__________________
Big T'z Q Cru Championship BBQ Team
CBJ #50801
6 WSM's
2 Weber Kettles
FEC100
2 Backwoods Fatboy
2 Not-so-Ugly Drum Smokers from Gateway BBQ Store
Jambo -- The Orange Monster
www.bigtzbbq.com
Join our facebook group
musicmanryann is offline   Reply With Quote


Thanks from:--->
Unread 11-28-2013, 07:23 PM   #184
musicmanryann
is One Chatty Farker

 
Join Date: 06-11-08
Location: Ames, Iowa
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pappy Q View Post
So........is it a MM category or a farking pork category?
Pork.
__________________
Big T'z Q Cru Championship BBQ Team
CBJ #50801
6 WSM's
2 Weber Kettles
FEC100
2 Backwoods Fatboy
2 Not-so-Ugly Drum Smokers from Gateway BBQ Store
Jambo -- The Orange Monster
www.bigtzbbq.com
Join our facebook group
musicmanryann is offline   Reply With Quote


Unread 11-28-2013, 07:43 PM   #185
musicmanryann
is One Chatty Farker

 
Join Date: 06-11-08
Location: Ames, Iowa
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawg Father of Seoul View Post
So a "rep advisory" that is not part of the printed rules supersedes the NEW rules that competitors actually look at. Bullchit!! If KCBS believes that, double bullchit. You should not have to be a lawyer to BBQ.

If I take a pork shoulder and trim it to 4 pounds I am above reproach. The rule states 4 pounds before trimming.
The rep advisories are not meant to supersede any rule, but rather articulate and/or clarify how the rep should interpret a rule. This is important as it is always up the the rep as to what is allowed and what is not at any given contest. In this case Rep advisory 4.11 clarifies exactly what the word "pork" is to mean in the pork rule:

4.11 Pork Collar
The board was asked to address the issue, if the cut known as “pork collar” is a legal cut for purposes of entry in a KCBS contest.
Opinion: The Boards answer is no.

Rule 10 states:
PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of five (5) pounds. Pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out) and shall not be separated during the cooking process. At no time shall the meat once separated be returned to a cooker.

The KCBS Board of Directors has adopted the National Pork Board’s definitions which define the standard for cuts of Boston Butt (item 406 bone in or without bone), Picnic (item 405 bone in or without bone) and/or Whole Shoulder (item 403). Pork Collar is not included in these approved “American” definitions of food service cuts of pork. Therefore pork collar is not an acceptable cut to be approved at meat inspection or turned in for the purposes of competition under the rules of KCBS. In the event a pork collar cut is turned in it shall receive a score of 1 by all judges in all criteria as a foreign object being a non-approved cut of meat.


Given that reps are instructed to define "Pork" in this way, I would interpret this to say if at any point prior to "Pork" being "cooked' I must be within this definition. In other words, if, prior to it being cooked, I trim it down to something that is not item 406, 405, or 403, it is an illegal cut.
__________________
Big T'z Q Cru Championship BBQ Team
CBJ #50801
6 WSM's
2 Weber Kettles
FEC100
2 Backwoods Fatboy
2 Not-so-Ugly Drum Smokers from Gateway BBQ Store
Jambo -- The Orange Monster
www.bigtzbbq.com
Join our facebook group
musicmanryann is offline   Reply With Quote


Unread 11-28-2013, 07:43 PM   #186
Smoke'n Ice
is one Smokin' Farker
 
Join Date: 05-08-09
Location: Plano, TX
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by musicmanryann View Post
The first part of the rule defines what 'PORK" is. It then goes on to say, after trimming, "PORK" shall be cooked whole. I'd say it says it right there exactly.
The money muscle is pork!
Smoke'n Ice is offline   Reply With Quote


Unread 11-28-2013, 07:51 PM   #187
musicmanryann
is One Chatty Farker

 
Join Date: 06-11-08
Location: Ames, Iowa
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smoke'n Ice View Post
The money muscle is pork!
Not according to the KCBS definition.
__________________
Big T'z Q Cru Championship BBQ Team
CBJ #50801
6 WSM's
2 Weber Kettles
FEC100
2 Backwoods Fatboy
2 Not-so-Ugly Drum Smokers from Gateway BBQ Store
Jambo -- The Orange Monster
www.bigtzbbq.com
Join our facebook group
musicmanryann is offline   Reply With Quote


Unread 11-28-2013, 07:58 PM   #188
Smoke'n Ice
is one Smokin' Farker
 
Join Date: 05-08-09
Location: Plano, TX
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by musicmanryann View Post
Not according to the KCBS definition.
I believe that the way the rule is written is part of the problem. Each person reads it the way they want to interpret it, not the way that the board meant or the intent of the rule. With a minor amount of clarification by the BOD, there would be no room for this. Write the rule so that it clearly conveys the intent and reasoning with minimal room for interpretation.
If I trim the butt that meets the definition after inspection and only cook that which is left after trimming then I am within the rule. If I try cook some of the trimmings, then I parted the pork and that is illegal.
Who says what constitutes trimming other that removing what is not needed or wanted? If the only thing I want or need is the MM, then so be it, I waste a bunch of money but it is my money.
Smoke'n Ice is offline   Reply With Quote


Unread 11-28-2013, 08:13 PM   #189
musicmanryann
is One Chatty Farker

 
Join Date: 06-11-08
Location: Ames, Iowa
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

The first part of the rule clearly defines what "pork" is and then goes on to say "pork" has to be cooked whole. It seems intentional to me. If you trim it to something that does not meet the definition of "pork" it is illegal.

When it comes down to it, I am merely trying to point out how KCBS may interpret the new rule to keep people from getting in trouble. Personally I will continue cooking my 10 pound pork butts whole.

I am curious if anyone has other substantive issues with the modified rule, beyond it allowing smaller cuts?
__________________
Big T'z Q Cru Championship BBQ Team
CBJ #50801
6 WSM's
2 Weber Kettles
FEC100
2 Backwoods Fatboy
2 Not-so-Ugly Drum Smokers from Gateway BBQ Store
Jambo -- The Orange Monster
www.bigtzbbq.com
Join our facebook group
musicmanryann is offline   Reply With Quote


Unread 11-28-2013, 08:20 PM   #190
Smoke'n Ice
is one Smokin' Farker
 
Join Date: 05-08-09
Location: Plano, TX
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Don't get me wrong. I am from NC and firmly believe that if you can slice it, it aint done. That being said, if you trim it and it weights less than 4 pounds after trimming, it does not meet the definition according to your interpretation whether all the muscles remain intact or not.
Smoke'n Ice is offline   Reply With Quote


Unread 11-28-2013, 08:28 PM   #191
musicmanryann
is One Chatty Farker

 
Join Date: 06-11-08
Location: Ames, Iowa
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smoke'n Ice View Post
That being said, if you trim it and it weights less than 4 pounds after trimming, it does not meet the definition according to your interpretation whether all the muscles remain intact or not.
Correct
__________________
Big T'z Q Cru Championship BBQ Team
CBJ #50801
6 WSM's
2 Weber Kettles
FEC100
2 Backwoods Fatboy
2 Not-so-Ugly Drum Smokers from Gateway BBQ Store
Jambo -- The Orange Monster
www.bigtzbbq.com
Join our facebook group
musicmanryann is offline   Reply With Quote


Thanks from:--->
Unread 11-28-2013, 08:37 PM   #192
musicmanryann
is One Chatty Farker

 
Join Date: 06-11-08
Location: Ames, Iowa
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smoke'n Ice View Post
Don't get me wrong. I am from NC and firmly believe that if you can slice it, it aint done. That being said, if you trim it and it weights less than 4 pounds after trimming, it does not meet the definition according to your interpretation whether all the muscles remain intact or not.
I could be wrong, but I am guessing this is why they wanted to leave the 5 pound minimum rule out to begin with--also why it likely passed with the addition of the 4 lb minimum. It is an arbitrary weight given you can only go so small on a shoulder whilst keeping it within the boundaries of the definition.
__________________
Big T'z Q Cru Championship BBQ Team
CBJ #50801
6 WSM's
2 Weber Kettles
FEC100
2 Backwoods Fatboy
2 Not-so-Ugly Drum Smokers from Gateway BBQ Store
Jambo -- The Orange Monster
www.bigtzbbq.com
Join our facebook group
musicmanryann is offline   Reply With Quote


Unread 11-28-2013, 08:38 PM   #193
Hawg Father of Seoul
is One Chatty Farker
 
Join Date: 09-14-10
Location: Rogers, AR
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by musicmanryann View Post
The rep advisories are not meant to supersede any rule, but rather articulate and/or clarify how the rep should interpret a rule. This is important as it is always up the the rep as to what is allowed and what is not at any given contest. In this case Rep advisory 4.11 clarifies exactly what the word "pork" is to mean in the pork rule:

4.11 Pork Collar
The board was asked to address the issue, if the cut known as “pork collar” is a legal cut for purposes of entry in a KCBS contest.
Opinion: The Boards answer is no.

Rule 10 states:
PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of five (5) pounds. Pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out) and shall not be separated during the cooking process. At no time shall the meat once separated be returned to a cooker.

The KCBS Board of Directors has adopted the National Pork Board’s definitions which define the standard for cuts of Boston Butt (item 406 bone in or without bone), Picnic (item 405 bone in or without bone) and/or Whole Shoulder (item 403). Pork Collar is not included in these approved “American” definitions of food service cuts of pork. Therefore pork collar is not an acceptable cut to be approved at meat inspection or turned in for the purposes of competition under the rules of KCBS. In the event a pork collar cut is turned in it shall receive a score of 1 by all judges in all criteria as a foreign object being a non-approved cut of meat.


Given that reps are instructed to define "Pork" in this way, I would interpret this to say if at any point prior to "Pork" being "cooked' I must be within this definition. In other words, if, prior to it being cooked, I trim it down to something that is not item 406, 405, or 403, it is an illegal cut.
Yeah, I would have to say that just the part I highlighted is enough to illuminate my point. That rep advisory clarifies the OLD rule, not the new one.

Other than that we will have to agree to disagree and I, as you, will continue to cook the big butts whole.

But come on, who was the DA to throw in 4 pounds?
Hawg Father of Seoul is offline   Reply With Quote


Unread 11-29-2013, 01:17 PM   #194
dmprantz
is One Chatty Farker
 
Join Date: 01-11-08
Location: Nashville
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by musicmanryann View Post
The KCBS Board of Directors has adopted the National Pork Board’s definitions which define the standard for cuts of Boston Butt (item 406 bone in or without bone), Picnic (item 405 bone in or without bone) and/or Whole Shoulder (item 403). Pork Collar is not included in these approved “American” definitions of food service cuts of pork.
....
In other words, if, prior to it being cooked, I trim it down to something that is not item 406, 405, or 403, it is an illegal cut.
Good info! One of the things that I wondered a bit is what happens if according to IMPS/NAMP if a 403A (Pork Shoulder, Long Cut) is then further butched as described for 406? Does any one do that? Is it still considered a 406, is it some other cut? Must a 406 come from a 403? If so, what does the above cut become? Something without number?

Before any one says that the above doesn't mention 403A, my question is about what does IMPS/NAMP consider a valid 406? Also, even though it's not described above, KCBS allows a 405A and 406A (boneless versions), so non-listed variants are legal in some situations.

Talk to your rep of course ;-)

dmp
dmprantz is offline   Reply With Quote


Unread 11-30-2013, 01:43 AM   #195
HawgPound
Got rid of the matchlight.
 
Join Date: 05-19-13
Location: Athens, Ga
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smoke'n Ice View Post
The money muscle is pork!
Trotters are pork. Chitlins are pork. Pork meatballs are pork. Ribs are pork. Should you be able to turn in ribs as your pork entry? I say no. When we say " pork" we should be saying "pork entry as defined by the KCBS rules"
HawgPound is offline   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Loading



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:37 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise v2.6.0 Beta 4 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
2003 -2012 © BBQ-Brethren Inc. All rights reserved. All Content and Flaming Pig Logo are registered and protected under U.S and International Copyright and Trademarks. Content Within this Website Is Property of BBQ Brethren Inc. Reproduction or alteration is strictly prohibited.
no new posts