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Competition BBQ *On Topic Only* Discussion regarding all aspects of Competition BBQ. Experiences competing or visiting, questions, getting started, Equipment, announcements of events, Results, Reviews, Planning, etc. Questions here will be responded to with competition BBQ in mind.


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Unread 11-27-2013, 11:52 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by Slamdunkpro View Post
Perhaps, perhaps not - When you trim a Beef Tenderloin roast you cut the chain and the head wrap off - These are two fairly large chunks of meat - it's still a tenderloin roast when you're done and it might go from 8 lbs in the cryo to 5lbs finished.

Another example - I go to the butcher to get butts and they don't have any, All they have are whole shoulders. I don't have time to trim it before going to the contest. I arrive and get the whole shoulder inspected (12 lbs). I then skin and trim it down to a butt-ish looking chunk - Trimming or butchering/breaking down? By your definition of trimming this would be illegal.
I think your making my point for me. You may end up with a tenderloin roast but it's no longer a whole tenderloin. If we had a tenderloin category and the rules said it must be cooked whole then you would have to leave the chain meat, the tail and that large muscle on there.

I've never trimmed a whole shoulder . Please educate me. Are all the muscles for a commercially trimmed butt included in your butt-ish looking chunk. If so legal. If not then you've created an illegal cut of pork.
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Unread 11-27-2013, 12:10 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by YankeeBBQ View Post
I think your making my point for me. You may end up with a tenderloin roast but it's no longer a whole tenderloin. If we had a tenderloin category and the rules said it must be cooked whole then you would have to leave the chain meat, the tail and that large muscle on there.
Grey area, it's no longer a PSMO, but it's still a whole tenderloin. The chain and the head wrap aren't part of the tenderloin muscle.

I've never trimmed a whole shoulder . Please educate me. Are all the muscles for a commercially trimmed butt included in your butt-ish looking chunk. If so legal. If not then you've created an illegal cut of pork.
I'll have to get the wife's porcine anatomy book out to be sure but I believe they remove the digastric muscle when they bone them out. There are 8 muscles in a pork butt btw.
1.Omohyoid muscle
2.Sternothyroid muscle
3.Trapezius muscle
4.Triceps brachii muscle
5.Deltoid
6.Lattissmus dorsi muscle
7.Digastric muscle
8.Mylohoid

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Unread 11-27-2013, 12:15 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by Slamdunkpro View Post
I'll have to get the wife's porcine anatomy book out to be sure but I believe they remove the digastric muscle when they bone them out. There are 8 muscles in a pork butt btw.
1.Omohyoid muscle
2.Sternothyroid muscle
3.Trapezius muscle
4.Triceps brachii muscle
5.Deltoid
6.Lattissmus dorsi muscle
7.Digastric muscle
8.Mylohoid

So if I define Tenderloin as: DSMO Cut weighing a minimum of 10 lbs at inspection that takes away any gray area right ? We've defined what cuts are legal in our pork rule.
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Unread 11-27-2013, 03:58 PM   #169
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Default The new Pork Rule defined.

The new pork rule: What does it really mean?

PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of four (4) pounds at time of inspection. After trimming, pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out), however, once cooked, it may be separated and returned to the cooker at the cook's discretion. It may be turned in chopped, pulled, chunked, sliced or a combination of any of those.

The final pork rule (2014) above may not mean what the BOD intended. We can argue our personal interpretation of the meaning of the words in the pork rule or use a crystal ball to interpret the BOD line of thinking, or can we.

To definitively decipher the rule, we must understand about creating rules and regulation specifically what do words mean. Simply, if a word is to be limited or defined in a manner different than found in commonly available dictionaries then the definition must be provided.

The words with the most discussion or “gray area” in their meanings are “trim” , “whole”, and “cooked”; none of which are defined in the rule(s). Therefore, a dictionary must be consulted.

From Merriam Webster:

Trim
verb

1) to cut (something) off something else
2) to remove (something) by cutting
3) to make (something) neat by cutting it
4) to make the size, amount, or extent of (something) smaller


Now we apply the four (4) definitions to the rule by substituting the meanings for the word “trimming”.

The rule: “After trimming, pork shall be cooked whole….”

“After cutting, pork shall be cooked whole….”
“After removing (something) by cutting, pork shall be cooked whole….”
“After making it neat by cutting, pork shall be cooked whole….”
“After making the size, amount, or extent smaller, pork shall be cooked whole….”


Whole
adjective

1) complete or full

2) not lacking or leaving out any part
2) having all the parts
3) not divided or cut into parts or pieces
4) great or large in size, extent, etc.

Referring to the sentence in the rule, “After trimming, pork shall be cooked whole”…... “Whole” is an adjective which qualifies a noun or pronoun in the same sentence. Therefore, we can conclude “whole” is referring to “pork” after the act of trimming.


cook
verb

1) to prepare for eating by a heating process
2) to go through the process of being cooked


The new pork rule when applying common meanings reads like this.

PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of four (4) pounds at time of inspection. After trimming (cutting, removing pieces by cutting, making neat by cutting, or making the size, amount, or extent smaller), pork shall be cooked (prepared for eating by heating above *145°) whole (trimmed pork) (bone in or bone out), however, once cooked (prepared for eating by heating above 145°)*, it may be separated and returned to the cooker at the cook's discretion. It may be turned in chopped, pulled, chunked, sliced or a combination of any of those."


*145° was added to further define “cooked” because 145° is the lowest temperature pork is considered safe to eat.

Much clearer now isn't it. Maybe not?


Is a pork collar legal?

No. Because pork collars are not defined as "Pork" in the rule even if they come from one of the parts of the shoulder. Refering to the
definition from the Pork Council, all parts contain a bone. Pork collars do not contain bones.

The rule.
"Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder weighing a minimum of four (4) pounds at time of inspection"


The Pork Council defines Pork shoulder as the top portion of the front leg of the hog. The terminology for pork shoulder can vary widely depending on the region. However, the lower ‘arm’ portion of the shoulder is most commonly called the arm Picnic. The upper part of the shoulder, often called the Boston Blade Roast (also known as Boston- style Butt), comes from the area near the loin and contains the shoulder blade bone.


Is a 4+ pound boneless Butt legal?


Yes, as long as the muscles around the bone are present.




After inspection can the Butt be trimmed down to the pork collar?


No. The rule allows trimming but after trimming it still has to meet the definition of PORK. Therefore, post trimmed pork should contain all the muscles of the inspected product.
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Unread 11-27-2013, 04:41 PM   #170
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So, with this new rule change for 2014, are the folks who are trimming MM but leaving "in tact" by leaving a sliver of fat cap attached cheating or legal?
This is also what I want to know. I could care less about the politics of the rule. I just want to know, from someone who can answer on behalf of the board, if this method is legal.
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Unread 11-27-2013, 05:12 PM   #171
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Another idea for the rule would be as follows:

Current

PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of four (4) pounds at time of inspection. After trimming, pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out), however, once cooked, it may be separated and returned to the cooker at the cook's discretion. It may be turned in chopped, pulled, chunked, sliced or a combination of any of those.

Suggested
PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of four (4) pounds at time of inspection. After minimal trimming with all muscle groups left intact with no separation, pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out), however, once cooked, it may be separated and returned to the cooker at the cook's discretion. It may be turned in chopped, pulled, chunked, sliced or a combination of any of those.

Or simpler yet, eliminate the word "SLICED." Without this word, all of the above conversation is mute.
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Unread 11-27-2013, 05:54 PM   #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMerrill View Post
After inspection can the Butt be trimmed down to the pork collar?

No. The rule allows trimming but after trimming it still has to meet the definition of PORK. Therefore, post trimmed pork should contain all the muscles of the inspected product.
Just to nit it up a bit the answer to this is No because pork collars contain portions of the loin between the first and second or even the third rostral ribs. IMPS Boston butts/roasts are broken at the first rostral rib.
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Unread 11-27-2013, 06:15 PM   #173
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What the fark was wrong with the rule to start with?
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Unread 11-27-2013, 09:20 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by musicmanryann View Post
Are you talking about pork collar? If so, there has already been a rep advisory that explicitly states that defines what "Pork" is and pork collar is not a part of that definition. Therefore, illegal meat even with the new rule.

If however you are talking about some other type of pork that would fit the KCBS definition, then I would be curious to know more.
So a "rep advisory" that is not part of the printed rules supersedes the NEW rules that competitors actually look at. Bullchit!! If KCBS believes that, double bullchit. You should not have to be a lawyer to BBQ.

If I take a pork shoulder and trim it to 4 pounds I am above reproach. The rule states 4 pounds before trimming.
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Unread 11-27-2013, 09:32 PM   #175
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Don't they teach reading and COMPREHENSION these days ?

PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of four (4) pounds at time of inspection. After trimming, pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out), however, once cooked, it may be separated and returned to the cooker at the cook's discretion. It may be turned in chopped, pulled, chunked, sliced or a combination of any of those."

Says Boston Butt, Boston Roast , Picnic and/or whole shoulder. Where does it say Pork Collar or SNF Euro Cut pork roast ? Cheat if you want, you probably won't get caught but if you do remember somebody got banned for 3 years just for wearing a penis apron.
Sir. Please refrain from such ad hominem attacks . The fact that a board member would bring penisgate back up after upholding such a suspension is admonishable.

Personally I will still cook mine whole BECAUSE I CAN. You passed this flacid rule for those who can't.

My statement was made because I hate all this "your cheating" Nancing about. Too bad it just made more. BTW if it takes two pages of stuff to explain a rule.... it is not good enough. Work on concision.
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Unread 11-28-2013, 07:56 AM   #176
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All I want is to know what I can cook not how it can be cooked. It amazes me that something so simple can be so difficult. Kcbs should only specify what cuts of meat are legal not how to cook. I don't care if you separate or not.
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Unread 11-28-2013, 08:05 AM   #177
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All I want is to know what I can cook not how it can be cooked. It amazes me that something so simple can be so difficult. Kcbs should only specify what cuts of meat are legal not how to cook. I don't care if you separate or not.
Thanks for being upfront and honest how you feel the rules should go as it will make it easier to vote. Good luck in the election.
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Unread 11-28-2013, 10:26 AM   #178
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What the fark was wrong with the rule to start with?
Bingo!!!!
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Unread 11-28-2013, 05:38 PM   #179
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Default Slow Smokin

it didn't allow cooking the money muscle by itself.
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Unread 11-28-2013, 06:23 PM   #180
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it didn't allow cooking the money muscle by itself.
The new rule does not allow the money muscle or any muscle to be cooked by it self. Pork must be cooked whole, but does allow for separation after it is done.

First line of the rule defines what pork is.
After trimming it still has to meet the definition of pork.
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