עָטִין
The BBQ BRETHREN FORUMS.


Forum Portal Recipes Smoke Signals Magazine Welocme Merchandise Associations Purchase Subscription Brethren Banners
Go Back   The BBQ BRETHREN FORUMS. > Discussion Area > Competition BBQ

Notices

Competition BBQ *On Topic Only* Discussion regarding all aspects of Competition BBQ. Experiences competing or visiting, questions, getting started, Equipment, announcements of events, Results, Reviews, Planning, etc. Questions here will be responded to with competition BBQ in mind.


Reply
Thread Tools
Unread 11-22-2013, 07:38 AM   #91
Smokin' Gnome BBQ
is One Chatty Farker
 
Smokin' Gnome BBQ's Avatar
 
Join Date: 05-31-07
Location: Shippensburg PA
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

I have a question, why cant you get slices (mm) and pulled from the same butt? the only advantage to parting and putting back on the cooker to me would be to set the sauce a little, I wonder how many people are gonna change their method and over cook the pork in a boiling vat of sauce...
__________________
A shout out to some awesome sponsors. The BBQ Guru,Dixie Meat Rub, The Ingredient store (FAB), Shippensburg Beverage Center and D & T Electric. Thank You.
Smokin' Gnome BBQ is offline   Reply With Quote


Unread 11-22-2013, 08:08 AM   #92
BMerrill
On the road to being a farker
 
Join Date: 02-17-09
Location: Ayden, NC
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slamdunkpro View Post
It's not that we don't want the rule changed - we don't want a flawed rule. The new rule in it's current incantation is flawed. It has a huge amount of wiggle room and, as written turns pork into a grilling contest (c'mon, we all know it does). Don't give me this crap about "trimming all the way down to the money muscle and just cooking that would be a DQ because it violates the "spirit of the rule" when butterflying and leaving the money muscle attached by a thread clearly violates the cooked whole spirit of the current rule but is never called or discussed. Doing this just creates a sea of grey interpretation making enforcement that much more difficult.

The "spirit" of the whole shoulder / Boston butt / roast rule is to show skill in cooking the traditional big meat. The new rule as written turns that on it's head. There has been more discussion about cheating / angle shooting in pork than any other meat since I've been around. Clearly pork is a a problem area and as such should a new rule be enacted it needs to be clearly defined so that there is no question as to what is permitted. It also shouldn't "dumb down" the skill required.
You are absolutely correct. Research the pork rule and it various changes. Each change looks like an attempt to refocus the cooks back to the spirit of the rule as cooks became more creative in trimming.

Pork shall be the whole shoulder or one of the two halves (Picnic or Butt), bone-in or deboned, having a minimum weight of 5 pounds after trimming. Deboned pork has to be tied in a manor to resemble the bone in product. Separation of muscles before cooking is complete is prohibited.

The above rule returns to the original intent.
Having a minimum weight after trimming would eliminate trimming a 5 pound butt to just the money muscle.
Deboned pork would have to be tied.
Prohibiting any “separation of the muscles before cooking is complete” would eliminate the creative trimming being done were the muscle groups are separated from each other but still attached by a sliver of the fat cap with the MM tied together and tethered to the blade portion. This also prohibits the cook in returning any portion of the pork to the cooker after separation.

Separation is a better word to use than “parting”. Separate means: not touching, not together; not in the same place.
BMerrill is online now   Reply With Quote


Thanks from:--->
Unread 11-22-2013, 08:25 AM   #93
Alexa RnQ
is One Chatty Farker

 
Alexa RnQ's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-12-07
Location: the Ninth Ring of Hell, cleverly disguised as Phoenix
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokin' Gnome BBQ View Post
I wonder how many people are gonna change their method and over cook the pork in a boiling vat of sauce...
__________________
.

Don't practice until you get it right; practice until you can't get it wrong.
Don't overthink or undercook.

180 Brisket -- Sam's Club, Salt Lake City, UT 2014
180 Chicken -- Sam's Club National, Bentonville, AR 2013


Rhythm 'n QUE
Alexa RnQ is offline   Reply With Quote


Thanks from: --->
Unread 11-22-2013, 08:26 AM   #94
Muzzlebrake
Babbling Farker
 
Muzzlebrake's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-22-06
Location: Pleasant Valley NY
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Holy Groundhog Day Batman!

I had to double check the time stamps, I thought I woke up in last January.
__________________
Sean Keever

"What sort of people are these charcoal masters? They behaved badly and were unconcerned with appearances. Their hair was long and unkempt and their clothes were wrinkled and old. They drank beer to and from the crab house and they made rude noises while we cooked." Tao of Charcoal
Muzzlebrake is offline   Reply With Quote


Thanks from: --->
Unread 11-22-2013, 09:42 AM   #95
YankeeBBQ
is One Chatty Farker
 
Join Date: 02-07-06
Location: boston ma
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMerrill View Post
You are absolutely correct. Research the pork rule and it various changes. Each change looks like an attempt to refocus the cooks back to the spirit of the rule as cooks became more creative in trimming.

Pork shall be the whole shoulder or one of the two halves (Picnic or Butt), bone-in or deboned, having a minimum weight of 5 pounds after trimming. Deboned pork has to be tied in a manor to resemble the bone in product. Separation of muscles before cooking is complete is prohibited.

The above rule returns to the original intent.
Having a minimum weight after trimming would eliminate trimming a 5 pound butt to just the money muscle.
Deboned pork would have to be tied.
Prohibiting any “separation of the muscles before cooking is complete” would eliminate the creative trimming being done were the muscle groups are separated from each other but still attached by a sliver of the fat cap with the MM tied together and tethered to the blade portion. This also prohibits the cook in returning any portion of the pork to the cooker after separation.

Separation is a better word to use than “parting”. Separate means: not touching, not together; not in the same place.
Even this rule could be picked apart. " Separation of muscles before cooking is complete is prohibited." Ok so in my opinion as a cook the cooking of my butt is complete. I separate the muscles and pull into chunks or shred it however I want. So now I want to set my sauce or just bring my pork up to temp before turning in. What in this rule prohibits that ? And why would you want to prohibit that ? I can do it with every other category. Am I a bad cook or just one that wants to turn in the best product I possibly can to the judges ? I don't want to grill it, microwave it or boil it in sauce, I just want to turn in nice hot pork to the judges. What's so wrong about that ?

Any bbq restaurant you go to holds their pulled pork in some type of warmer, they don't just pull it and leave it sitting on the counter. If you went to a restaurant and got cold pork I'm sure you wouldn't be very pleased. I've heard people say judges shouldn't mark down if it's cold. Why not ? It shouldn't be cold.
__________________
Steve Farrin
KCBS BOD member. Thank you for your support.

This post is my opinion and mine alone, not necessarily that of the KCBS, it's board of directors or office nor that of Peter Pan, Tinkerbell and certainly not Rush Limbaugh.
YankeeBBQ is offline   Reply With Quote


Thanks from: --->
Unread 11-22-2013, 10:40 AM   #96
Slamdunkpro
Babbling Farker

 
Slamdunkpro's Avatar
 
Join Date: 02-27-07
Location: Northern VA
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by YankeeBBQ View Post
Even this rule could be picked apart. " Separation of muscles before cooking is complete is prohibited." Ok so in my opinion as a cook the cooking of my butt is complete. I separate the muscles and pull into chunks or shred it however I want. So now I want to set my sauce or just bring my pork up to temp before turning in. What in this rule prohibits that ? And why would you want to prohibit that ? I can do it with every other category. Am I a bad cook or just one that wants to turn in the best product I possibly can to the judges ? I don't want to grill it, microwave it or boil it in sauce, I just want to turn in nice hot pork to the judges. What's so wrong about that ?
Fine. Here's your no wiggle room pork rule:
Legal pork shall consist of IMPS shoulder #403 and it's derivatives ( 403B, 403C, 404, 406, 406B, 406C, and 407) where the animal has been broken no further rostral than Cervical vertebra C3 and no further caudal than thoracic vertebra T1 (the first rostral rib). Pork must have a minimum raw post trim weight of 5 pounds. Pork must be cooked whole and intact. Butterflying, fileting,or separating (defined at cutting out a specific muscle and leaving a minimal attachment to other muscle groups) muscles prior to or during the cook is prohibited (Caution; while boneless butts / roasts are allowed, they are subject to the same parting and trimming standards as bone in products.) . Once the pork is removed from the cooker and any portion of the pork is cut, sliced, pulled or removed no part of the pork may be returned to the cooker until after the pork turn in window closes.

It preserves the original spirit of pork bbq, is clear and enforceable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by YankeeBBQ View Post
Any bbq restaurant you go to holds their pulled pork in some type of warmer, they don't just pull it and leave it sitting on the counter. If you went to a restaurant and got cold pork I'm sure you wouldn't be very pleased. I've heard people say judges shouldn't mark down if it's cold. Why not ? It shouldn't be cold.
I'm sorry but I find this line of reasoning disingenuous at best. We all know that from turn in table to renumbering to tray sorting to judge's table to appearance judging, piece selection and finally sampling and judging it's going to be a lukewarm sample at best. This applies to all turn ins, not just pork. There just isn't enough thermal mass in each sample piece to retain the heat.
__________________
Aporkalypse Now Competition BBQ team
Thanks to our sponsors: Wusthof Trident USA & Creekstone Farms
Spicewine Tandem - "The Beast"

Brinkman modified upright, Weber Kettle(s); Meadow Creek Pr-24, Super Stealth Mode black & Night Vision Red Thermopens
-----------------
MABA - (Mid Atlantic BBQ Association) President
KCBS Certified Judge - #23289
Slamdunkpro is online now   Reply With Quote


Thanks from: --->
Unread 11-22-2013, 10:54 AM   #97
YankeeBBQ
is One Chatty Farker
 
Join Date: 02-07-06
Location: boston ma
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

[QUOTE=Slamdunkpro;2703259

I'm sorry but I find this line of reasoning disingenuous at best. We all know that from turn in table to renumbering to tray sorting to judge's table to appearance judging, piece selection and finally sampling and judging it's going to be a lukewarm sample at best. This applies to all turn ins, not just pork. There just isn't enough thermal mass in each sample piece to retain the heat.[/QUOTE]

Luke warm is a hell of a lot better than cold. Thus putting it in the box as hot as you can is a really good start. Many cooks carry their turn in containers in an insulated carrier. Several preheat that carrier. You think maybe there's a reason for that ??
__________________
Steve Farrin
KCBS BOD member. Thank you for your support.

This post is my opinion and mine alone, not necessarily that of the KCBS, it's board of directors or office nor that of Peter Pan, Tinkerbell and certainly not Rush Limbaugh.
YankeeBBQ is offline   Reply With Quote


Unread 11-22-2013, 11:03 AM   #98
Slamdunkpro
Babbling Farker

 
Slamdunkpro's Avatar
 
Join Date: 02-27-07
Location: Northern VA
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by YankeeBBQ View Post
Luke warm is a hell of a lot better than cold. Thus putting it in the box as hot as you can is a really good start. Many cooks carry their turn in containers in an insulated carrier. Several preheat that carrier. You think maybe there's a reason for that ??
I agree - we try to have everything in the box as hot as possible and we use an insulated carrier. When we box our pork it's so hot we have to use insulated gloves to handle it - no reheating or additional cooker time required. It's a cooking skill issue, why are you trying to reduce the skill required?
__________________
Aporkalypse Now Competition BBQ team
Thanks to our sponsors: Wusthof Trident USA & Creekstone Farms
Spicewine Tandem - "The Beast"

Brinkman modified upright, Weber Kettle(s); Meadow Creek Pr-24, Super Stealth Mode black & Night Vision Red Thermopens
-----------------
MABA - (Mid Atlantic BBQ Association) President
KCBS Certified Judge - #23289
Slamdunkpro is online now   Reply With Quote


Thanks from:--->
Unread 11-22-2013, 11:26 AM   #99
Jorge
somebody shut me the fark up.
 
Jorge's Avatar
 
Join Date: 01-23-04
Location: DFW, San AntonioTx
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slamdunkpro View Post
I'm sorry but I find this line of reasoning disingenuous at best. We all know that from turn in table to renumbering to tray sorting to judge's table to appearance judging, piece selection and finally sampling and judging it's going to be a lukewarm sample at best. This applies to all turn ins, not just pork. There just isn't enough thermal mass in each sample piece to retain the heat.
You can call him a lot of things, but disingenuous isn't one of them.

You may not agree with him. But he's always been straightforward and honest with me, and anybody else I know that is familiar with him.
__________________
You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline - it helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear weapons, but at the very least you need a beer. --Frank Zappa

BOOGITY, BOOGITY, BOOGITY!!!

Recipient of a Huggies box!

Shut up, and cook!!!!
Jorge is offline   Reply With Quote


Thanks from: --->
Unread 11-22-2013, 11:53 AM   #100
Slamdunkpro
Babbling Farker

 
Slamdunkpro's Avatar
 
Join Date: 02-27-07
Location: Northern VA
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jorge View Post
You can call him a lot of things, but disingenuous isn't one of them.

You may not agree with him. But he's always been straightforward and honest with me, and anybody else I know that is familiar with him.
I don't find Steve disingenuous but I find that particular oft repeated argument so. Specious might be a better word.
__________________
Aporkalypse Now Competition BBQ team
Thanks to our sponsors: Wusthof Trident USA & Creekstone Farms
Spicewine Tandem - "The Beast"

Brinkman modified upright, Weber Kettle(s); Meadow Creek Pr-24, Super Stealth Mode black & Night Vision Red Thermopens
-----------------
MABA - (Mid Atlantic BBQ Association) President
KCBS Certified Judge - #23289
Slamdunkpro is online now   Reply With Quote


Unread 11-22-2013, 12:22 PM   #101
Rich Parker
Babbling Farker
 
Join Date: 06-20-09
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by YankeeBBQ View Post
Luke warm is a hell of a lot better than cold. Thus putting it in the box as hot as you can is a really good start. Many cooks carry their turn in containers in an insulated carrier. Several preheat that carrier. You think maybe there's a reason for that ??
If a cook has cold pork at turn in they should go home and practice and whatever score they get that day is well deserved. Before you bring it up, I have been there and done that!

Why should the other teams be put at a disadvantage because they were able to put hot pork in their turn in box?
__________________
WSM and UDS - iBQ'n BBQ Team co-founder TheBBQSuperstore.com sponsored by Deep South Smokers
Rich Parker is offline   Reply With Quote


Thanks from: --->
Unread 11-22-2013, 12:35 PM   #102
Jorge
somebody shut me the fark up.
 
Jorge's Avatar
 
Join Date: 01-23-04
Location: DFW, San AntonioTx
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slamdunkpro View Post
I don't find Steve disingenuous but I find that particular oft repeated argument so. Specious might be a better word.
I get it. When I was elected I actually wanted to open the category up to "pork" and turn cooks loose. Then I looked at the ramifications more closely and listened to a couple of people that suggested we needed pork to be a long cook since chicken and ribs were either on short timelines or timelines that were shrinking.

MABA may be different, but when you get elected to the KCBS BoD you need to accept the fact that you are wrong. Nobody calls or emails when you did something right. Nobody calls or emails when you ask for input. If something goes south people will come out of the woodwork when you've made a decisions on something that you've already asked for input on.

I give Steve and Dave all the credit in the world for being willing to step out and listen and take the heat. Heat that isn't necessarily from you.

I added Thanks to Podge's post about just voting the damn thing. I don't agree with the new rule, but it might just get cooks pissed off enough to give a chit. Steve is a cook, and a great cook. He may not agree with the input he's given but I've got no doubt he'd consider it and take the input to the committee and BoD. Being elected to the BoD doesn't invest anyone with ESP to know what the cooks are thinking. Maybe this will be a catalyst to encourage communication from the bottom up. If not, cooks can continue to bitch and whine, which will happen no matter what the BoD does.
__________________
You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline - it helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear weapons, but at the very least you need a beer. --Frank Zappa

BOOGITY, BOOGITY, BOOGITY!!!

Recipient of a Huggies box!

Shut up, and cook!!!!
Jorge is offline   Reply With Quote


Thanks from: --->
Unread 11-22-2013, 01:21 PM   #103
Scottie
Babbling Farker
 
Scottie's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-03-06
Location: Chi-Town
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

He just talks funny...
__________________
cancersuckschicago.com
FROM SEA TO SHINING SEA BBQ TOUR

Red Jambo one off
FE 100
FEC 100
WSM
Homer Simpson 22 " Weber Kettle
Red 18 1/2" Weber Kettle
Black 26 3/4" Weber Kettle
Scottie is online now   Reply With Quote


Thanks from:--->
Unread 11-22-2013, 01:50 PM   #104
Podge
is One Chatty Farker
 
Join Date: 09-25-06
Location: Elk Creek, Ky.
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Just like the US elected government officials, if you don't like what they're doing, then vote on someone you agree with at the next election.

Tell ya what would make for an interesting polling question for potential canidates for next election, is to he how they specifically feel about the potential pork rules and what they believe in and would vote for. Indirectly, the voting membership would then have a vote for the person on what they believe in for the pork rule. (not saying the pork rule is the one and only hot topic of discussion, but damn, I can't remember the last time something like this has dragged on and on and on. Again, this ain't a consensus, it's a vote by our elected board members!)
Podge is offline   Reply With Quote


Unread 11-22-2013, 04:56 PM   #105
Slamdunkpro
Babbling Farker

 
Slamdunkpro's Avatar
 
Join Date: 02-27-07
Location: Northern VA
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jorge View Post
I get it. When I was elected I actually wanted to open the category up to "pork" and turn cooks loose. Then I looked at the ramifications more closely and listened to a couple of people that suggested we needed pork to be a long cook since chicken and ribs were either on short timelines or timelines that were shrinking.

MABA may be different, but when you get elected to the KCBS BoD you need to accept the fact that you are wrong. Nobody calls or emails when you did something right. Nobody calls or emails when you ask for input. If something goes south people will come out of the woodwork when you've made a decisions on something that you've already asked for input on.

I give Steve and Dave all the credit in the world for being willing to step out and listen and take the heat. Heat that isn't necessarily from you.

I added Thanks to Podge's post about just voting the damn thing. I don't agree with the new rule, but it might just get cooks pissed off enough to give a chit. Steve is a cook, and a great cook. He may not agree with the input he's given but I've got no doubt he'd consider it and take the input to the committee and BoD. Being elected to the BoD doesn't invest anyone with ESP to know what the cooks are thinking. Maybe this will be a catalyst to encourage communication from the bottom up. If not, cooks can continue to bitch and whine, which will happen no matter what the BoD does.
Let's hold on a sec, this isn't personal on my end nor is it whining or sour grapes. As for input to the BOD, I've tried to do that in a constructive way. I had a conversation with Candy about this at Sam's and asked her who was replacing Jeff as head of Competition since he resigned - She said no one is. Now we don't know who is on the competition committee or who if anyone is chairing it and we're coming down to the wire on 2014. I'm not trying to speak for Mike Peters here but it appears that he recognized that the pork rule that is scheduled to take effect next year is flawed and I applaud him for stepping up and taking the heat for that.

It seems to me that this whole thing is boiling down to one vocal group who wants to be able to cut up their pork butt; another group that doesn't, a bunch who don't really care and the last group (which I'm in) doesn't really care except that we want the rule to be clear with little wiggle room and we don't want the category dumbed down.

If the Board changes the pork rule, cut / no cut / whatever, it's going to impact a lot of people and with the spotlight on BBQ the way it is right now the last thing KCBS needs is a new rule with acres of grey open to interpretation and shenanigans.

I also want to apologize to Steve Farrin if I in any way implied that he was dishonest or not dealing above board. I wasn't.
__________________
Aporkalypse Now Competition BBQ team
Thanks to our sponsors: Wusthof Trident USA & Creekstone Farms
Spicewine Tandem - "The Beast"

Brinkman modified upright, Weber Kettle(s); Meadow Creek Pr-24, Super Stealth Mode black & Night Vision Red Thermopens
-----------------
MABA - (Mid Atlantic BBQ Association) President
KCBS Certified Judge - #23289
Slamdunkpro is online now   Reply With Quote


Thanks from: --->
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Loading



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:24 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise v2.6.0 Beta 4 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
2003 -2012 © BBQ-Brethren Inc. All rights reserved. All Content and Flaming Pig Logo are registered and protected under U.S and International Copyright and Trademarks. Content Within this Website Is Property of BBQ Brethren Inc. Reproduction or alteration is strictly prohibited.