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Competition BBQ *On Topic Only* Discussion regarding all aspects of Competition BBQ. Experiences competing or visiting, questions, getting started, Equipment, announcements of events, Results, Reviews, Planning, etc. Questions here will be responded to with competition BBQ in mind.


View Poll Results: Do you find comment cards helpful?
Yes 164 83.25%
No 20 10.15%
Uncertain 13 6.60%
Voters: 197. You may not vote on this poll

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Unread 07-26-2013, 12:23 PM   #46
DawgPhan
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I love that most of you are 100% certainly how 1000's of judges would respond to a change in the judging procedure. The reality is that anyone saying that mandatory comment cards would result in judges only giving out score above the cut have no clue how the judges would respond to the change.

Comment cards could be valuable for cooks, but also for KCBS to learn more about how judges score. That information could be used to identify areas where the actual methods used to judge are deviating from the intended method as described by KCBS.

Judges that would respond to the comment card by caring less about the scores they give dont need to be judging. KCBS should be actively working to root out those judges and make sure that they are not damaging the integrity of their contests.
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Unread 07-26-2013, 12:35 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billygbob View Post
What comment would you expect for an average/6? "It was average"? "It could have been better"? Are you looking for the judge to tell you how you should have cooked? Judges are instructed to not do that in comments.
Well, for one, I don't expect comment cards, I give them. A six is miles from a nine and the team deserves to know why I marked them down. Just telling them their six was "average" or their four was "poor" helps nobody. I tell them exactly what's wrong with it. Undercooked, overcooked, gray in color, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by billygbob View Post
I see (way too many) judges finish scoring six entries in less than five minutes. I doubt more time between turn ins is going to change things for/from them.

Edited to add: I like that more Reps are requiring all judges to stay at the table until they are all done judging. Unfortunately, I haven't seen that make the "speed judges" take any more time actually judging the entries.
You say you haven't "seen" the speed judges take any more time judging their samples... I'm curious, are you one of those guys who lines up to watch the judges through a window or tent flap? Those guys creep me out! Honestly, you're as likely to get rid of poor judges as you are cooks who cheat. Ain't happening. The good judges (and there are far more of those than poor ones, in my experience) take the newbies under their wings and teach them how to judge right. The poor judges couldn't be bothered to teach anyone anything.
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Unread 07-26-2013, 01:20 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arlin_MacRae View Post
Candy Sue, are you asking this of competitors, judges, or both?
Anyone who cares to chime in actually.
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Unread 07-26-2013, 01:22 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Podge View Post
I've only had one comment card, and it was extremely helpful!!.. I'd love to see them still used. I don't understand why their use would be (or is) cancelled since they are an option?
Bragger. My opinion, I've never gotten a comment card that told me anything useful...
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Unread 07-26-2013, 01:23 PM   #50
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+1 check boxes for the typical mark up/downs (poll judges as well)
+1 add lines for written comments
+1 Tear sheet idea so the renumber can be removed
+1 required on every entry
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Unread 07-26-2013, 01:29 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smoke'n Ice View Post
I am all in favor of the comment cards as is a concensus majority of the BOD. The only problem that I see is, the BOD member who is in charge of finding a solution, is against them in the first place and voted so. His job, as I understand it, is to form a committee and try to effect a solution. I think that ice water, cold day in Phoenix, etc. come to mind. We'll see.
I've made no secret that I, personally, think comment cards are a waste of time. I still voted to pursue a plan to make them work.

It is 100% absolutely a bad idea to make comment cards mandatory at any given score. What that does is force scores up to the "no comment card" range. Comment cards can be recommended at a certain score or below, but not required.
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Unread 07-26-2013, 01:32 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Q-Dat View Post
Well then lets make them mandatory no matter the score. If a judge refuses, then they obviously don't take the task of judging seriously.
Are you willing to push the awards back so this can happen? Sorting and attaching comment cards takes beau coup time to do it right.
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Unread 07-26-2013, 01:38 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DawgPhan View Post
I love that most of you are 100% certainly how 1000's of judges would respond to a change in the judging procedure. The reality is that anyone saying that mandatory comment cards would result in judges only giving out score above the cut have no clue how the judges would respond to the change.

Comment cards could be valuable for cooks, but also for KCBS to learn more about how judges score. That information could be used to identify areas where the actual methods used to judge are deviating from the intended method as described by KCBS.

Judges that would respond to the comment card by caring less about the scores they give dont need to be judging. KCBS should be actively working to root out those judges and make sure that they are not damaging the integrity of their contests.
How would KCBS know? In the past the comment card was stapled to the individual team detail sheet. KCBS does not record that info anywhere. There was a suggestion last board meeting to put comments on back of score card -- there'd have to be a spot for 6-8 comments on the back of the card (relating to how many samples the judge gets to judge). That way KCBS would get the comments AND the comment would (hopefully) be identified with the correct team.
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Unread 07-26-2013, 01:44 PM   #54
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Is it my responsibility as a judge to make a team better at cooking BBQ? Of course not.

If I judge a teams entry below average, is it my responsibility to articulate to them why...of course it is.

Until a judge has that mentality, making comment cards mandatory or not is pointless.

I am sorry I don't know how to tell you how to get a judge to that point, for me it was many years and competitions, both judging and cooking.
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Unread 07-26-2013, 01:45 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Candy Sue View Post
Are you willing to push the awards back so this can happen? Sorting and attaching comment cards takes beau coup time to do it right.
It wouldn't bother me a bit, but I don't speak for everyone, so I see your point. Why not send the comment cards out via email or traditional snail mail the next day?
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Unread 07-26-2013, 01:55 PM   #56
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As a cook I value comment cards. Even those I think are ridiculous give me an insight into the thought processes of that judge and help me understand their scores.

As a judge I can't remember a recent contest where I have *not* submitted at least one comment card, usually I average two or three.

I don't have a specific set point where I use them, rather I will fill out a card when I feel my scores may require some explanation. For example I might make a comment on a 9-9-7 score to advise the cook that a rib was excellent with the exception that there was a bit of membrane overlooked that brought down the tenderness score.
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Unread 07-26-2013, 02:21 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slamdunkpro View Post
I'm with ya on this. Move turn ins to one hour apart (starting at 11) so that judges have time to evaluate and properly comment on each entry.
I've been saying this for years! Require a comment on EVERY score so that not only does the team know why they got the score they received, but so that KCBS can see how ALL judges score and why. Make the comment part of the scorecard.
This would require an hour between turn-ins, but would improve the judging and the understanding of the teams.
If there are some judges who don't like this, FINE, there are plenty of judges like me who want to improve relations between judges and teams! More are being trained every week.
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Unread 07-26-2013, 02:44 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Candy Sue View Post
How would KCBS know? In the past the comment card was stapled to the individual team detail sheet. KCBS does not record that info anywhere. There was a suggestion last board meeting to put comments on back of score card -- there'd have to be a spot for 6-8 comments on the back of the card (relating to how many samples the judge gets to judge). That way KCBS would get the comments AND the comment would (hopefully) be identified with the correct team.

Obviously they would need to collect the data and then look at it.

KCBS needs to have a clear vision for competition BBQ, they are the gold standard, and they need to support and reinforce that vision at every turn.

Collecting data, analyzing it, and identifying cooks, judges, and organizers who are not supporting that and then course correcting along the way.
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Unread 07-26-2013, 02:59 PM   #59
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We have only 3 comps under our belt, however we were left scratching our heads after a 7th place chicken call and the following comp a 32nd using the same recipe and technique. Everyone has bad days or there may have been that one bad piece of chicken we were unaware of. However without a comment card, we do not know what the issue was.

So in short yes, I think they are a valuable tool to new and established teams on the circuit.
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Unread 07-26-2013, 04:07 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slamdunkpro View Post
I'm with ya on this. Move turn ins to one hour apart (starting at 11) so that judges have time to evaluate and properly comment on each entry.
That's what we do up here in the PNWBA, pork at 11, brisket at 12, chicken at 1, ribs at 2, awards at 4. At the comp two weekends ago we received a comment card from just about every judge in every category....but we also received 9,9,9,8,7,4 for brisket tenderness
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