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Unread 07-17-2013, 10:38 PM   #136
Balls Casten
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Just throwing this out there .... Distribute all the "low" scoring judges and all the "low" scoring judges get thrown out? ?????
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Unread 07-18-2013, 08:50 AM   #137
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Here is the one thing that is missing when we start throwing average scores out. In Holbrook, AZ there were 3 DQ's this weekend, 2 raw chickens and 1 foreign object. Not sure what tables they hit since I don't have my score sheet in front of me. Those scores are included in the averages which skew the data. A judge has no control over that DQ and what score he gives it. Should the new system not include that score when figuring the averages only?? Otherwise if you're a judge and go to every contest and your table gets a DQ won't it skew your judge average down and make the judge look like he's scoring low when really he has no control over that DQ, they are just following the rules???????
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Unread 07-18-2013, 09:24 AM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokinclone View Post
Here is the one thing that is missing when we start throwing average scores out. In Holbrook, AZ there were 3 DQ's this weekend, 2 raw chickens and 1 foreign object. Not sure what tables they hit since I don't have my score sheet in front of me. Those scores are included in the averages which skew the data. A judge has no control over that DQ and what score he gives it. Should the new system not include that score when figuring the averages only?? Otherwise if you're a judge and go to every contest and your table gets a DQ won't it skew your judge average down and make the judge look like he's scoring low when really he has no control over that DQ, they are just following the rules???????
That is a good point, Darren. Seems it would be best to not include such outliers in the analysis. If the score contains a score less than or equal to 1, it would receive a NULL value in the database. Or we use the median value of scores, rather than average to compensate.
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Unread 07-18-2013, 09:26 AM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokinclone View Post
Here is the one thing that is missing when we start throwing average scores out. In Holbrook, AZ there were 3 DQ's this weekend, 2 raw chickens and 1 foreign object. Not sure what tables they hit since I don't have my score sheet in front of me. Those scores are included in the averages which skew the data. A judge has no control over that DQ and what score he gives it. Should the new system not include that score when figuring the averages only?? Otherwise if you're a judge and go to every contest and your table gets a DQ won't it skew your judge average down and make the judge look like he's scoring low when really he has no control over that DQ, they are just following the rules???????
First of all, congrats on your GC in Holbrook! Sorry that we didn't see you in person after the awards ceremony. I also want to say that my analysis of the score sheet for that event in no way reflects negatively on your team's performance. You were in the lead after every category and I think, based upon your brisket score, that even if yours and the Hill's briskets had both missed Table 4 that you would still have taken GC but that the margin of victory would have been narrower. Regardless, great work, great cooking and a great win!

I think you bring up a good point about how to factor DQs into the equation but I also think that DQs will represent such a small percentage of judge's historical average so as not to require much weight. That will, of course, remain to be seen.

As for Holbrook, I only see one DQ on the score sheet and that was in the Brisket category as a late entry. That entry was assigned to Table 4. While the KCBS scoring average did include that DQ in the judge's contest scoring average, I did not include it when I ran the placing averages for that table since clearly a late entry has nothing to do with the judges. Regardless, Table 4 accounted for the last non-DQ placing in every category and for 10 of the 20 lowest non-DQ placings across the categories.
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Unread 07-18-2013, 09:33 AM   #140
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What's with table 4?? I think at least three of the contests people are talking about here, table 4 was the low table. Coincidence???
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Last edited by musicmanryann; 07-18-2013 at 09:35 AM.. Reason: I missed word.
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Unread 07-18-2013, 09:34 AM   #141
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It's a conspiracy, I tell ya!
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Unread 07-18-2013, 11:26 AM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokinclone View Post
Here is the one thing that is missing when we start throwing average scores out. In Holbrook, AZ there were 3 DQ's this weekend, 2 raw chickens and 1 foreign object. Not sure what tables they hit since I don't have my score sheet in front of me. Those scores are included in the averages which skew the data. A judge has no control over that DQ and what score he gives it. Should the new system not include that score when figuring the averages only?? Otherwise if you're a judge and go to every contest and your table gets a DQ won't it skew your judge average down and make the judge look like he's scoring low when really he has no control over that DQ, they are just following the rules???????
I guess this thread is proof of what you said would happen.
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Unread 07-18-2013, 12:35 PM   #143
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I'll admit that all the statistics stuff is over my head, but I don't understand how random is better than applying what we know about a judges history? I look at it this way -

1) if it gives me more information about why my stuff scored the way it did, thats a good thing (perfect? no, but I believe more is better).

2) I believe some people arent qualified to be KCBS CBJ's - If this can help indentify them for re-training/elimination, then I support it. This isn't about all judges giving everyone a 9, its about the few judges who consistenly score 3-4 full points under everyone else. There arent millions of them, but they do exist

I understand point 2 might not be popular and could get a little scary with the wrong implemention, but I think its necessary for the continued growth of KCBS.
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Unread 07-18-2013, 12:38 PM   #144
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Quote:
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I'll admit that all the statistics stuff is over my head. I look at it this way -

1) if it gives me more information about why my stuff scored the way it did, thats a good thing (perfect? no, but I believe more is better).

2) I believe some people arent qualified to be KCBS CBJ's - If this can help indentify them for re-training/elimination, then I support it. This isn't about all judges giving everyone a 9, its about the few judges who consistenly score 3-4 full points under everyone else. There arent millions of them, but they do exist
I feel exactly the same way Joe.
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Unread 07-18-2013, 01:17 PM   #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokin' Joe View Post
I'll admit that all the statistics stuff is over my head, but I don't understand how random is better than applying what we know about a judges history? I look at it this way -

1) if it gives me more information about why my stuff scored the way it did, thats a good thing (perfect? no, but I believe more is better).

2) I believe some people arent qualified to be KCBS CBJ's - If this can help indentify them for re-training/elimination, then I support it. This isn't about all judges giving everyone a 9, its about the few judges who consistenly score 3-4 full points under everyone else. There arent millions of them, but they do exist

I understand point 2 might not be popular and could get a little scary with the wrong implemention, but I think its necessary for the continued growth of KCBS.
1. I agree if the information is valid. If it's just the illusion of information (again think roulette history boards) then acting on it may be detrimental.
2. The KCBS position seems to be that if the check clears that person is qualified to be a judge. Again the age old question - How many people have failed the CBJ class?

What about the few judges that constantly score 2 to 3 points higher than the rest of the table? Will they be retrained? I can see the future and it's score cards full of 8,8,8.
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Unread 07-18-2013, 01:23 PM   #146
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Quote:
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What about the few judges that constantly score 2 to 3 points higher than the rest of the table? Will they be retrained? I can see the future and it's score cards full of 8,8,8.
No, I like those judges so they can stay In all seriousness, yes they should also be retrained or removed. Again, implementation is key here. Otherwise the movement to 888 in a real concern
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Unread 07-18-2013, 01:43 PM   #147
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Everybody scoring 888's would be a concern if you looked at a particular judge's average score across contests. If you compared their score against the average of the other 5 judges at their table every contest, this wouldn't be an issue. This is what ique mentioned earlier in the discussion. A judge could be indexed on how they deviate from the other judges at their table for each entry.
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Unread 07-18-2013, 02:01 PM   #148
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How is Average Judge Score on the sheet defined? I thought it would be that judge's average score for the 6 entries in that category only. However, I did the math from my chicken table form last weekend and it doesn't add up. Is it that judge's average for the entire contest across all 24 samples?
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Unread 07-18-2013, 02:13 PM   #149
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I asked for clarification on Judge Average Score.

It's the sum of that judge's scoring on that day at that contest for all 4 categories.
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Unread 07-18-2013, 02:13 PM   #150
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Quote:
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How is Average Judge Score on the sheet defined? I thought it would be that judge's average score for the 6 entries in that category only. However, I did the math from my chicken table form last weekend and it doesn't add up. Is it that judge's average for the entire contest across all 24 samples?
Yessir!
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