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Competition BBQ *On Topic Only* Discussion regarding all aspects of Competition BBQ. Experiences competing or visiting, questions, getting started, Equipment, announcements of events, Results, Reviews, Planning, etc. Questions here will be responded to with competition BBQ in mind.


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Unread 07-15-2013, 07:00 AM   #16
bignburlyman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Basted moral support guy View Post
It made us dislike table five.

Oh snap! Now everyone will hate table 5 as much as they hate judge #6, lol.
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Unread 07-15-2013, 07:54 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Balls Casten View Post
and I hope the judges that hand out high scores stand out as well.
Aren't many of those in New England A team from here goes down south, and it adds 20-30 points to your score.


I really do like the new system, gives us a lot of good feedback. They also handed the teams a note saying that comment cards were not integrated with the new software, and would (as least temporarily) stop being used. (Our rep told us the new numbering scheme made it harder to track the comment cards.) I do like the cards, but they don't get used often enough, and the new scoring system does give you a lot of useful information, so it's not a bad trade off. I wouldn't mind seeing them come back, but I suspect KCBS wanted to drop them anyway. I'm sure that they could have figured out how to track the cards if they wanted to.

Now the question is: is this information also going to be used to evaluate judge's performance? Judges that, for example, give everyone a 7 all the time (or a 9) will be exposed here. Maybe those judges need to attend the CBJ course again. Mike from Lakeside is now retired from BBQ and making beer. He tells me that beer judges have to pass a certification exam, one that is quite difficult. Maybe a "lite" version of that asking questions about the KCBS rules, even an online test taken periodically, would be a good thing. Taste is subjective, but people mark down for things they shouldn't like the number of pieces (over 6), smoke ring, meat temp - a periodic validation that people understand the rules wouldn't be a bad thing.

One thing we heard in Troy from a judge, after the turns ins. They heard another judge say they mark down for less than 8 pieces of meat, because they want the "table captains to have a choice too." I'm sorry, but that is a little over the top for me. 6 pieces is the requirement. I judged this contest last year, and spoke directly to a judge that was marking down for 6 pieces. I explained that for chicken we liked to include the biggest, meatiest pieces of chicken we could find to give the judges the most flavor, and if we find what we want, we can't fit more than 6 in the box. We prep more pieces, and it doesn't mean we don't have more that are turn in quality, but we can only fit six unless they want us to do the little trimmed balls 'o chicken thing. THAT judge, at least, later told me she hadn't thought of it that way and now no longer marks down for that.

Anyway, the now scoring system could be used to detect "problem judges", will be interesting to see what happens with it.
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Unread 07-15-2013, 08:12 AM   #18
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I really liked the new printouts and getting more information. I thought it was interesting for us this weekend at a smaller contest we were frequently with the same teams at the table. This makes sense, since they try to not give the same table the same teams food. We had a couple of judges really give low scores that were not consistent with the rest of the table and I had hoped that would be consistent with other teams, but it did not appear so this time. Any time you get more information, it's helpful.

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Unread 07-15-2013, 08:40 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eggspert View Post
.. we were frequently with the same teams at the table. This makes sense, since they try to not give the same table the same teams food. We had a couple of judges really give low scores that were not consistent with the rest of the table and I had hoped that would be consistent with other teams, but it did not appear so this time. Any time you get more information, it's helpful.

Eggspert
In principle I agree but I really feel for the contest reps and responsible parties at contests that will have to field all the complaints this will generate. Information can be a liability not a benefit.
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Unread 07-15-2013, 08:59 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eggspert View Post
We had a couple of judges really give low scores that were not consistent with the rest of the table and I had hoped that would be consistent with other teams, but it did not appear so this time.
Eggspert
So these judges gave you low scores and not the other teams? I'm guessing they didn't like your entry.
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Unread 07-15-2013, 09:21 AM   #21
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On the judge's average score, what is N? is N that judge's average for that particular contest or is N the cumulative average score for that judge over their entire history?
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Unread 07-15-2013, 09:41 AM   #22
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Mike Davis posted a picture of his print out in his facebook feed
Lotta Bull had a great weekend for sure
Thanks for for putting it up there Mike and Debbie
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Unread 07-15-2013, 10:10 AM   #23
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With at least 13 tables, wonder why the reps and table captains allowed two of his meats on the same table.
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Unread 07-15-2013, 10:25 AM   #24
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We really like it. A few observations:

At the risk of sounding obvious, the information contained in the new scoresheet has always existed but was not reported. I've heard a lot of grumbling about "bad tables", "Judge #5", "hard a** judges", etc. in the three or so years since we started competing, and now you can see exactly what table you landed on, who you were scored with, what the judges gave you, how your score compares to that judges' average score, and how you ranked on that table. If someone is of a mind to say they "got screwed by bad tables" I guess they've got something with which to try and make that argument. I look at it the other way: I've heard people say too many times to count "my _______ was terrible" and then they get a call in that category. Maybe on those occasions you thought your entry was bad, maybe it was. Maybe you landed on a "good" table and lucked out. Bottom line, over time the "good/bad" table/judge (if there really is such a thing) will even itself out. The very best teams win week in/week out because they cook consistently well, regardless of who is judging their food. You might suffer a little on a given week, or you might catch a break. But if you bring it strong every time the results will reflect that.

As far as the concept of good/bad tables, I'm not convinced there really is such a thing. Our practice is to turn in certain entries early/late in the allowable windows, and I am certain other teams do the same. I think this could result in multiple entries from more experienced teams getting turned in together, which could then result in some tables getting mostly experienced team entries and others getting newer teams' boxes. Experienced would reasonably translate to better scores on average, which would look like a "good table". But what if those experienced team entries ended up on a table of very tough judges? Might it then look like a "bad" table? And then I have seen/heard of boxes getting reshuffled onto different tables upon turn in so the judging tables don't necessarily get entries in the order in which they're turned in. All this means to me is anyone can read and interpret the data in any way they wish and justify any conclusion they wish to draw.

We're going to try not to use the additional data to justify a bad cook. Emphasis on "try". We are going to keep a close eye on how our scores compare with each individual judge's average score. If we're doing better than average on that number then I fel like we're on the right track. It will also be interesting how we stack up against the strongest competitors if/when that happens. All in all a giant leap forward in data analysis and a useful tool.
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Unread 07-15-2013, 10:28 AM   #25
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Quote:
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So these judges gave you low scores and not the other teams? I'm guessing they didn't like your entry.
Yes, that is what I know now. Before I assumed maybe the judge scored low on all teams. Now that I know how the judge scored the other entries it helps me understand that that this time the judge did not like our entry. You can't please everyone! I do wish that they could get comment cards going again and would mandate if you give a 6 or lower that you fill one out. We got a 6, when the rest of the judges scored 8-9, and we got a call on the entry??? Wierd.

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Unread 07-15-2013, 10:32 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Slamdunkpro View Post
On the judge's average score, what is N? is N that judge's average for that particular contest or is N the cumulative average score for that judge over their entire history?

I figure it's probably for the particular contest. It could be cumulative, but I see a potential data collection nightmare. The reps would have to have a datafile for every judge containing every score they'd ever submitted for every contest they'd judged. Sure, it could be done. But if you're sitting in a tent in Gettysburg running the scoring program, how would you access that datafile and integrate it into results for that day?
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Unread 07-15-2013, 10:49 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Funtimebbq View Post
With at least 13 tables, wonder why the reps and table captains allowed two of his meats on the same table.


I think there were 78 teams. You would think they wouldn't hit the same table though
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Unread 07-15-2013, 11:42 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eggspert View Post
Yes, that is what I know now. Before I assumed maybe the judge scored low on all teams. Now that I know how the judge scored the other entries it helps me understand that that this time the judge did not like our entry. You can't please everyone! I do wish that they could get comment cards going again and would mandate if you give a 6 or lower that you fill one out. We got a 6, when the rest of the judges scored 8-9, and we got a call on the entry??? Wierd.

Eggspert
I got ya. As for the 6, it'd be great to know but of course that score got dropped.
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Unread 07-15-2013, 11:43 AM   #29
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It also gives us more stuff to wonder about Like in Troy, NY today we were ranked 1st on every table our product landed on, but 4th overall in the contest. Was it the product? Did we just hit a low scoring table? Our ribs were middle of the pack overall, but still won the table that they were on. How much did the table we hit influence the result?
I think finishing 1st at each table you should expect to place in the top 5 of a field the size of the one in Troy. The rib table was a killer, we were on the same table finished 2nd on the table which was good enough for 20th O/A. I agree they werent my best ribs but there is no way there were 19 better rib entries at that contest

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Originally Posted by Kit R View Post

As far as the concept of good/bad tables, I'm not convinced there really is such a thing. Our practice is to turn in certain entries early/late in the allowable windows, and I am certain other teams do the same. I think this could result in multiple entries from more experienced teams getting turned in together, which could then result in some tables getting mostly experienced team entries and others getting newer teams' boxes. Experienced would reasonably translate to better scores on average, which would look like a "good table". But what if those experienced team entries ended up on a table of very tough judges? Might it then look like a "bad" table?
I disagree, I think it will point out that low scoring table that can kill your scores. Defining that table as wither bad or tough is up to you but I think it wil highlight the table that is out of the norm in either direction. I think an additional statistic ranking each table with the average score given would be really helpful.

Take table 4 from the Troy contest Chris and I landed on together in ribs. In that category we were 1 & 2 on the table which was 13th & 20th O/A. During the entire contest only one team recieved a score from that table good enough for a top 10. Table 2 on the other hand had a minimum of 2 entries in the top 5 of each category.

Granted I don't think there is going to be anything we as cooks can do about this but I do think it will help you get a better understanding of whether your score is a byproduct of your cooking or the judges judging. That goes both ways for good and bad scores, how many times have you turned in something you thought was just downright bad and then heard your name called? I know I will use this data as a point of reference before i go changing anything in my process.
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Unread 07-15-2013, 11:47 AM   #30
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I like it. We finished Gettysburg with 1st Chicken, 2nd ribs, 2nd pork and 15th place brisket.

Now, for the breakdown. We won each table we landed on, except brisket where we were 2nd. The highest score on brisket was 158, and finished 13th.

I don't know if its a "bad" table, but certainly we all scored low on that table.
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