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Q-talk *ON TOPIC ONLY* QUALITY ON TOPIC discussion of Backyard BBQ, grilling, Equipment and just outdoor cookin' in general, hints, tips, tricks & techniques, success, failures... but stay on topic. And watch for that hijacking.


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Unread 02-01-2013, 11:08 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaybls View Post
Harry is on to something. Here's the science behind his technique: At 140F, a hold time of 35 minutes is necessary for chicken (with 12% fat) to be sufficiently pasteurized, and safe to eat. The leaner the chicken, the less time it has to be held. 1% fat requires 25 minutes at 140F to be safe. Chicken heated to 155F IT need only be held at that temp for 1 minute before it's "safe." Why then does the USDA suggest 165F? One reason is that's the temp Salmonella dies a quick death. Another, it's a "keep it simple" solution that most people can adhere to. If your thermometer is off, or you pull it off a little early - say 160F - you're still safe. I cook my chicken to 155-160F and it's perfect.
Where are those hold times coming from? The report that Gore linked above shows much lower times.

But, if we go with yours, they actually go against Harry's technique instead of showing that he is on to something. He's holding for significantly less than the 25 - 35 minute range that you indicate.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but there is a lot of data flying around in this thread and it needs to be backed up by a source.
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Unread 02-01-2013, 11:09 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gore View Post
I didn't see or hear what he said, but the study seems to back him up. I don't think we're all in agreement about a reliable, clean source of chicken. From all I've read, the local farm that kills and preps their chickens themselves have about a 1 in 10,000 shot of being contaminated by salmonella, yet any of the big manufacturers that you get in your local supermarket have about a 1 in 3 shot of being contaminated. Yet it is the former that are considered to be unsafe and unreliable and the latter that are considered safe.
Excellent point. Notice that I didn't define what that reliable, clean source was? :)
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Unread 02-01-2013, 11:12 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron_L View Post
Where are those hold times coming from? The report that Gore linked above shows much lower times.

But, if we go with yours, they actually go against Harry's technique instead of showing that he is on to something. He's holding for significantly less than the 25 - 35 minute range that you indicate.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but there is a lot of data flying around in this thread and it needs to be backed up by a source.
Take into account a slight temperature rise during the rest. It won't be much, but if he's pulling the chicken off the grill at 145F, and depending on how hot the pit is, he can expect as much as 5-7 degrees in the rise - taking the temp up above 150F. (My data comes from: http://www.fsis.usda.gov/OPPDE/rdad/...try_Tables.pdf.)
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Unread 02-01-2013, 11:27 AM   #34
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Nobody mentioned the skin (or I missed it). I assume you'd be cooking on a 300+ grill and crisping the skin?
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Unread 02-01-2013, 11:30 AM   #35
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If you listen to the podcast it makes more sense. If I'm not mistaken that's what he does with his comp chicken. And as we all know, he wins a lot in chicken.
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Unread 02-01-2013, 11:33 AM   #36
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Well, Harry got top spot as Champion in the Chicken category at the KCBS end of year results.

We can call BS on this all day long, but to pretend he doesn't know what's up is ludicrous.
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Unread 02-01-2013, 11:34 AM   #37
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Harry is not the first successful comp guy to cook his chicken to lower than traditional temp and have success. Time in the heat is key here and it is not just a black and white issue as it relates to internal temp and acceptable doneness.

There are also ways to have your chicken +190 degrees and juicy.
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Unread 02-01-2013, 11:42 AM   #38
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I see this has turned into just a safety discussion, but I'm still not quite sold on the tenderness thing. It should be more tender at both lower temps and higher temps than at 145. 145 is right in the middle of the tough meat temps. It may be tender in the sense that you can chew it, but among all temps of doneness, that should be less tender than temps lower, and temps in the 180+ range.
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Unread 02-01-2013, 12:09 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BB-Kuhn View Post
Well, Harry got top spot as Champion in the Chicken category at the KCBS end of year results.

We can call BS on this all day long, but to pretend he doesn't know what's up is ludicrous.
No one is pretending that he doesn't know what's up, and it's hard to argue with his results. We're just discussing it
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Unread 02-01-2013, 12:14 PM   #40
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Raw Oysters, veggies, steak I love......but raw chicken and hamburger....how do you say Hell No in Harry's language?
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Unread 02-01-2013, 12:40 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrink01 View Post
Nobody mentioned the skin (or I missed it). I assume you'd be cooking on a 300+ grill and crisping the skin?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swamp Donkeyz BBQ View Post
If you listen to the podcast it makes more sense. If I'm not mistaken that's what he does with his comp chicken. And as we all know, he wins a lot in chicken.
I did listen to it and he never talks about his process. He mentiones that he cooks the whole KCBS comp on one WSM, so it doesn't sound like he has a grill available.

He also says that he cooks a breast to 145 then wraps it in foil and lets it sit. That's not the same as holding it at 145.
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Unread 02-01-2013, 12:50 PM   #42
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It is the same concept behind sous vide meat. Basically you are pasteurizing the chicken completely safe. The fat and collagen can break down at these low temps as well if you can hold it in the sweet spot long enough. Very hard to do with dry heat.
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Unread 02-01-2013, 12:55 PM   #43
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I'll see what I can find out tomorrow. I am in his class here in the Bay Area. He definitely doesn't follow the traditional ways. That 's why I'm so excited to go!
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Unread 02-01-2013, 01:05 PM   #44
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He stated on the show that his method is based on the studies of Juneja (Spelling?) and the test was done via peer review methods including grinding the meat and purposeful inoculation of bacteria. Thus they has made sure the meat had bugs and the bugs were not just on the outside of the meat but on the inside so that much like hamburger this is a worse case scenario. The process of hitting 145 degrees and holding at that temperature for a set time in these tests showed results of no live bacteria and thus safe to eat. He went on to say based upon this research the time required to hold it at was less than 10 minutes but he goes with 10 minutes to err on the side of safety.
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Unread 02-01-2013, 01:09 PM   #45
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I have said it time and time again. "Chicken is the Devil"!
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