The BBQ BRETHREN FORUMS.


Forum Portal Recipes Smoke Signals Magazine Welocme Merchandise Associations Purchase Subscription Brethren Banners
Go Back   The BBQ BRETHREN FORUMS. > Discussion Area > Competition BBQ

Notices

Competition BBQ *On Topic Only* Discussion regarding all aspects of Competition BBQ. Experiences competing or visiting, questions, getting started, Equipment, announcements of events, Results, Reviews, Planning, etc. Questions here will be responded to with competition BBQ in mind.


Reply
Thread Tools
Unread 09-06-2012, 11:59 AM   #31
Lake Dogs
Quintessential Chatty Farker

 
Lake Dogs's Avatar
 
Join Date: 07-14-09
Location: Lake Sinclair, GA
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jorge View Post
By shuffling boxes AND moving judges you actually increase the chance of one or more teams being judged by high/low scoring judges more than once.
You're right, but the "good" tables and the "bad" tables are shuffled. The odds increase that any 1 judge sees your Q does go up, but the odds are 0 that the same group of judges judges it. It's about mixing up the grouping and minimizing the effect of good/bad tables. It does this. It doesn't prevent one of the same judges judging your Q again.

Mind you, I applaud the new scoring results posting.
__________________
Hance - Lake Dogs Cooking Team - MiM/MBN/GBA CBJ and comp cook
Lake Sinclair, GA (strategically about an hour from everywhere)
Lake Dogs is offline   Reply With Quote


Unread 09-06-2012, 12:06 PM   #32
Lake Dogs
Quintessential Chatty Farker

 
Lake Dogs's Avatar
 
Join Date: 07-14-09
Location: Lake Sinclair, GA
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smoke Ring View Post
This confirms what I have been saying about KCBS contests involving luck. Yes, to win you have to cook well and consistently but you also have to be lucky. Someone commented this solves the problem of guessing what went wrong, but unfortunately it doesn't solve the problem that something went wrong.
This isn't a KCBS problem so much as it is a problem with every cookoff with multiple tables. It's a bit of the nature of the beast. You will have "hot" tables, and you will have "cold" tables. Your entry will land on a table with what should be the top 5 or 6 entries in the whole contest (and they aren't scored that way), and your entry will land on a table where everyone else around yours is aweful (so your good entry stands out just that much more). Your entry will also be tested after an entry that leaves a bad taste in the tasters mouth and yours will get a lesser score as a result. It happens, regardless of the sanctioning body, regardless of the type of cookoff.
__________________
Hance - Lake Dogs Cooking Team - MiM/MBN/GBA CBJ and comp cook
Lake Sinclair, GA (strategically about an hour from everywhere)
Lake Dogs is offline   Reply With Quote


Unread 09-06-2012, 12:32 PM   #33
Jorge
somebody shut me the fark up.
 
Jorge's Avatar
 
Join Date: 01-23-04
Location: DFW, San AntonioTx
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lake Dogs View Post
You're right, but the "good" tables and the "bad" tables are shuffled. The odds increase that any 1 judge sees your Q does go up, but the odds are 0 that the same group of judges judges it. It's about mixing up the grouping and minimizing the effect of good/bad tables. It does this. It doesn't prevent one of the same judges judging your Q again.

Mind you, I applaud the new scoring results posting.
That can be accomplished by sending boxes to different tables, and retaining the opportunity for each team to land on good/bad tables.

I want each team to have the same opportunity to land on the SAME table. Otherwise you just penalized the six teams that landed on a 'bad" table for chicken if you change the makeup for ribs. If you are randomly moving people from table to table there doesn't appear to be any safeguard to prevent the formation of another bad table, which one or more teams from the first category may land on again further hurting their chances. The converse is also true. You may create a judging pool where one or more teams gain an advantage in the event they land on more than one high scoring table.
__________________
You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline - it helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear weapons, but at the very least you need a beer. --Frank Zappa

BOOGITY, BOOGITY, BOOGITY!!!

Recipient of a Huggies box!

Shut up, and cook!!!!
Jorge is offline   Reply With Quote


Thanks from: --->
Unread 09-06-2012, 01:15 PM   #34
mobow
is one Smokin' Farker

 
Join Date: 12-11-09
Location: Marshall MO
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnivorous Endeavors BBQ View Post
I wonder how this would work out if all certified judges scores were kept and averaged over a period of time or several contests. Judges could then be assigned to tables so that all tables have near the same cumulative average for scoring. If all tables had a close to the same average in scoring, it would seemingly(on the surface) start a contest with a more level playing field. This way you shouldn't get 1 table who likes to score all 9's for practically everything. Just a thought....
I am not a statistician nor do I play one on TV. But several contest would not be enough to draw any meaningful conclusions. Most researchers consider 30 to be a minimum number of participants for a study to have any validity. 100 is better. Given the nature of this beast I think 30 or so is a good number to consider. It will then average out across the board for those times that really good or really bad food crosses the judging table.

And in my opinion the all 9's everytime judge is as much and maybe more of a problem than the lower scoring judge. keith
__________________
WSM 22.5, MCBJ, In The Key Of Que
mobow is offline   Reply With Quote


Unread 09-06-2012, 02:23 PM   #35
olewarthog
Full Fledged Farker
 
olewarthog's Avatar
 
Join Date: 01-07-10
Location: Hazlehurst, GA
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jorge View Post
That can be accomplished by sending boxes to different tables, and retaining the opportunity for each team to land on good/bad tables.

I want each team to have the same opportunity to land on the SAME table. Otherwise you just penalized the six teams that landed on a 'bad" table for chicken if you change the makeup for ribs. If you are randomly moving people from table to table there doesn't appear to be any safeguard to prevent the formation of another bad table, which one or more teams from the first category may land on again further hurting their chances. The converse is also true. You may create a judging pool where one or more teams gain an advantage in the event they land on more than one high scoring table.
But shouldn't the objective be NOT to have "good" & "bad" tables? Assigned seating means that a "good" or "bad" table remains as such throughout the contest. Random seating means that the same 5 or 6 "good" judges and the same 5 or 6 "bad" judges do not determine the winners & losers.
__________________
Jim Sewell -- GBA Vice President, Master Judge, Contest Rep & GBA Webmaster
olewarthog is offline   Reply With Quote


Thanks from:--->
Unread 09-06-2012, 03:04 PM   #36
Smokin' Joe
is one Smokin' Farker
 
Smokin' Joe's Avatar
 
Join Date: 02-03-08
Location: IOWA
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Candy Sue View Post
Also, ranking change (approved last year) will happen for next year as well.
Could someone please refresh my memory on what this change is?
__________________
TippyCanoe BBQ Crew
www.tippycanoebbq.com



Memphis Pro
Backwoods Fatboy
Backwoods Party
Smokin' Joe is offline   Reply With Quote


Thanks from:--->
Unread 09-06-2012, 04:00 PM   #37
Lake Dogs
Quintessential Chatty Farker

 
Lake Dogs's Avatar
 
Join Date: 07-14-09
Location: Lake Sinclair, GA
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jorge View Post
...
The converse is also true. You may create a judging pool where one or more teams gain an advantage in the event they land on more than one high scoring table.
But, they do now (in KCBS), or negative tables. In the test they had 6 tough tables (dont like the word bad) and they had 10 easy tables apparently. By keeping the tables as-is, there's a good chance that a few of the teams consistently landed on one of those 10 good/easy tables, putting the others at a distinct disadvantage. I'd personally prefer, for lack of a better word, busting the good and bad tables by shuffling judges. JMHO.
__________________
Hance - Lake Dogs Cooking Team - MiM/MBN/GBA CBJ and comp cook
Lake Sinclair, GA (strategically about an hour from everywhere)
Lake Dogs is offline   Reply With Quote


Thanks from:--->
Unread 09-06-2012, 04:29 PM   #38
Basted moral support guy
Knows what a fatty is.
 
Join Date: 07-09-12
Location: Joplin, MO
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Seeing those scans reminded me of how much we overcooked our chicken. I tried to block it out.
__________________
Gettin' Basted barbecue team
Basted moral support guy is offline   Reply With Quote


Thanks from:--->
Unread 09-06-2012, 04:51 PM   #39
stl-rich
Full Fledged Farker

 
stl-rich's Avatar
 
Join Date: 07-10-10
Location: saint louis, MO
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Are the Judges given similar data? Back when I was judging I always wanted to know how myscores compared
stl-rich is online now   Reply With Quote


Unread 09-06-2012, 04:57 PM   #40
Big Mike
is one Smokin' Farker
 
Big Mike's Avatar
 
Join Date: 10-12-07
Location: Dayton Ohio
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by stl-rich View Post
Are the Judges given similar data? Back when I was judging I always wanted to know how myscores compared
Excellent idea. As a cook, I don't really care that I can tell who was on the table with me. What I like is seeing the judges avg score. I think that would be good for a judge to see as well
__________________
ROLL TIDE!!!!

Big Mike
Eagle River Barbecue
Stumps Platinum 5 Trailer
Chargriller Duo Grill
Members Mark 8 Burner Gasser
Big Mike is offline   Reply With Quote


Unread 09-06-2012, 06:07 PM   #41
Carnivorous Endeavors BBQ
Full Fledged Farker

 
Join Date: 10-13-10
Location: Carencro, Louisiana
Downloads: 1
Uploads: 0
Default

Mobow,

I write this with all due respect but and I understand what you are saying but it was more about the general concept than trying to get caught up in the details. If the new system won't be effective until 30-100 contests judged then it would seemingly be useless as it takes most folks are really long time to achieve that.
__________________
2 - 22.5" WSM , Weber 22.5 Performer and a very tolerant, very Beautiful Wife!!
[B]Black[/B] & [B][COLOR=Blue]Blue[/COLOR][/B] Thermapens!!
KCBS CBJ & TC #55078
IBCA #2570
Carnivorous Endeavors BBQ is offline   Reply With Quote


Unread 09-06-2012, 06:47 PM   #42
EatonHoggBBQ
Babbling Farker
 
Join Date: 11-28-08
Location: Allen Park, Michigan
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Candy Sue View Post
A better solution, IMO, is to make certain that boxes don't land on the same table in front of the same judges multiple times.

Gee, I may be wrong and correct me if I am but..... I think this is what they are already doing. Or at least it is what I have experienced in the past six years that I have been a certified judge.
__________________
John, KCBS/MCBJ
EatonHoggBBQ is offline   Reply With Quote


Unread 09-06-2012, 07:26 PM   #43
tmcmaster
is One Chatty Farker
 
Join Date: 09-23-08
Location: York, PA
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnivorous Endeavors BBQ View Post
Mobow,

I write this with all due respect but and I understand what you are saying but it was more about the general concept than trying to get caught up in the details. If the new system won't be effective until 30-100 contests judged then it would seemingly be useless as it takes most folks are really long time to achieve that.
I think he meant KCBS testing this at 30 - 100 contests. They should be able to knock that out in a few weeks next year. .
__________________
Tim McMaster - Porter Mac's Rockin' BBQ - Recently converted Pellet-Head
tmcmaster is offline   Reply With Quote


Unread 09-06-2012, 09:42 PM   #44
Grizmt
Got Wood.
 
Join Date: 12-16-10
Location: Phoenix,az
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jorge View Post
By shuffling boxes AND moving judges you actually increase the chance of one or more teams being judged by high/low scoring judges more than once.
I think there's some clarification needed to what I was saying. Once the boxes get to the TC they are (at every event I've ever been at) checked for duplication from a list each TC has and swapped out if clam on the tray is from a team that has already hit the table.
The reason I suggested the shuffle of clams (boxes) prior to getting to the TC is to pretty much kill off a fairly easy way to "help" a friend win. Before anyone gets wound up, I'm not saying it's ever been done as I've not been at every event but I know it's possible to do. Shuffling the boxes prior to getting to the TC wouldn't stop clams from hitting a good or bad table, that's not why I suggested it.
Shuffling judges and TC's would certainly help the good/bad,cold/hot table issues.
Just my thoughts, your mileage may vary.
Grizmt is offline   Reply With Quote


Unread 09-06-2012, 10:01 PM   #45
Slamdunkpro
is Blowin Smoke!

 
Slamdunkpro's Avatar
 
Join Date: 02-27-07
Location: Northern VA
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grizmt View Post
I think there's some clarification needed to what I was saying. Once the boxes get to the TC they are (at every event I've ever been at) checked for duplication from a list each TC has and swapped out if clam on the tray is from a team that has already hit the table.
Interesting, I've never seen it done at the TC level. That would seem to be a lot of box handling with the potential for dropped boxes. Here the boxes are always shuffled and checked for repeat tables before the TC's get their trays.
__________________
Aporkalypse Now Competition BBQ team
Thanks to our sponsors: Wusthof Trident USA & Creekstone Farms
Spicewine Tandem - "The Beast"

Brinkman modified upright, Weber Kettle(s); Meadow Creek Pr-24, Super Stealth Mode black & Night Vision Red Thermopens
-----------------
MABA - (Mid Atlantic BBQ Association) President
KCBS Certified Judge - #23289
Slamdunkpro is online now   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Loading



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:10 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise v2.6.0 Beta 4 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
2003 -2012 © BBQ-Brethren Inc. All rights reserved. All Content and Flaming Pig Logo are registered and protected under U.S and International Copyright and Trademarks. Content Within this Website Is Property of BBQ Brethren Inc. Reproduction or alteration is strictly prohibited.
no new posts