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Unread 11-09-2011, 11:23 AM   #1
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I really do want to know your stance on PORK rules! It will determine how I vote and maybe how others vote as well.

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Unread 11-09-2011, 02:02 PM   #2
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That thread is still alive Candy http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/sh...d.php?t=119816

But for the record I'm against the rule. Especially the part that says you can't return parted pork to the cooker. Why can't I return parted pork to the cooker to set a sauce on the money muscle and make sure the pulled meat is nice and hot when it goes into the box ?
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Unread 11-09-2011, 02:13 PM   #3
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I am against the pork rule. It just makes no sense or at least no one has been able to explain it in a way that makes sense. In the last couple of years we've gotten rid of the "identifiable" rule - this one needs to go on the trash heap, also.

If some one can explain the reason that this rule was created and why it might still be relevant I might change my mind, but until then I'm against it.
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Unread 11-09-2011, 09:20 PM   #4
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I'm against it as well. Same reasons.
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Unread 11-09-2011, 10:08 PM   #5
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If a rule is near impossible to enforce then why have the rule? The rule can go away at anytime.
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Unread 11-09-2011, 10:27 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leatherheadiowa View Post
If a rule is near impossible to enforce then why have the rule? The rule can go away at anytime.
Hmmm...using that argument, you may as well do away with rules 3, 6, 7, 8, and most of 17 while you're at it.
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Unread 11-10-2011, 12:30 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokedelic View Post
Hmmm...using that argument, you may as well do away with rules 3, 6, 7, 8, and most of 17 while you're at it.
If that's the way you feel. I was talking about the rule being discussed, but thanks for your insight. I think all rules need to be evaluated on some type of routine schedule and have adequate member input and discussion from cooks and judges.
Enforcing any and or all of the would require(s) micromanagement and we all know how that subject goes.
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Unread 11-10-2011, 07:23 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rookie'48 View Post
I am against the pork rule. It just makes no sense or at least no one has been able to explain it in a way that makes sense. In the last couple of years we've gotten rid of the "identifiable" rule - this one needs to go on the trash heap, also.

If some one can explain the reason that this rule was created and why it might still be relevant I might change my mind, but until then I'm against it.
it is there to preserve the large cut cook of the pork.

if it is removed, then we've got a pork grilling contest. similar to where chicken is now.

i do realize what's good for the goose is good for the gander and brisket may be parted, so why not pork?


but i think the integrity of cooking a large peice of pork whole must be held together as best as possible.
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Unread 11-10-2011, 07:42 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leatherheadiowa View Post
If that's the way you feel. I was talking about the rule being discussed, but thanks for your insight. I think all rules need to be evaluated on some type of routine schedule and have adequate member input and discussion from cooks and judges.
Enforcing any and or all of the would require(s) micromanagement and we all know how that subject goes.
It's not the way I feel, but apparently, it's the way you feel.

To answer your question "If a rule is near impossible to enforce then why have the rule" more directly, you have those rules that are hard to enforce because the vast majority of cooks out here will follow them anyway, regardless of the amount of oversight or level of enforcement. There will always be a small minority that will not follow the rules, intentionally or unintentionally, no matter how many or how few rules there are and no matter how great or how lacking the oversight may be, but that shouldn't be the justification for doing away with a rule.
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Unread 11-10-2011, 10:08 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokedelic View Post
It's not the way I feel, but apparently, it's the way you feel.

To answer your question "If a rule is near impossible to enforce then why have the rule" more directly, you have those rules that are hard to enforce because the vast majority of cooks out here will follow them anyway, regardless of the amount of oversight or level of enforcement. There will always be a small minority that will not follow the rules, intentionally or unintentionally, no matter how many or how few rules there are and no matter how great or how lacking the oversight may be, but that shouldn't be the justification for doing away with a rule.

That's an argument I can listen to and appreciate.

I've suggested some changes, to pork in particular. Money is becoming a bigger player in some contests. I don't think RGC will be as pissed if they miss out on $5k, as they will if it's $50k and the GC is discovered to be cheating at some point. Those contests are out there, and if we take care of business there could be more.

Doesn't KCBS have an obligation to look at those issues and try to address them before the fact?
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Unread 11-10-2011, 11:42 AM   #11
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Doesn't KCBS have an obligation to look at those issues and try to address them before the fact?
Yes...and I hope they will. Sooner rather than later. I hope they use more logic than just doing away with a rule because it's difficult to enforce.
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Unread 11-10-2011, 12:13 PM   #12
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Quote:
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Yes...and I hope they will. Sooner rather than later. I hope they use more logic than just doing away with a rule because it's difficult to enforce.
If you've got a better solution, I'm willing to listen. If you've got workable ideas on enforcement, I'd like to hear them. Emphasis is on workable. I'm not playing games or trying to be an ass. How do we enforce what we have to work with now, or something altered slightly without solely depending on honesty and integrity. I don't doubt those qualities in the OVERWHELMING majority of cooks.

At the end of the day, I want to see a reasonable set of rules that benefit the overwhelming majority of cooks that are willing to play by those same rules. You and Don, are up at the top of the food chain and can hold your own whether they choose to cheat or not. I'm not just thinking about the difference in GC or RGC. It's also about the team that is knocking on the door to get that first top ten call. You think back to when you started and tell me how much that first call meant in comparison to the GC calls you've had.

It's all about that level playing field, that everybody wants to talk about. As an organization we need to focus on that, as well as other things.
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Last edited by Jorge; 11-10-2011 at 12:15 PM.. Reason: typo, and I'm sure there are others
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Unread 11-10-2011, 12:28 PM   #13
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Fines dont work for an infraction, no way to enforce or collect. An example would be to ban the team for 2 years (used as an example). While i do not expect every team to be search for their pork. Couldnt KCBS do spot checks? Pull a couple of team numbers out of a hat and inspect just those teams? Teams would know this going in to contests that there is a possibility of a check up on their meat.

For the record i support no parting rule. I do not necessarily agree with heating pulled or sliced pork part of the rule. But it needs to be enforced, so i guess ultimately i dont support that either.

Learn to cook better and you can cook money muscle and the rest of the butt. If you cant, then cook 3 or 4 butts.
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Unread 11-10-2011, 02:48 PM   #14
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After giving this some thought, if the purpose of the pork category is to cook a large piece of pork vs turning it into a pork grilling event Here's how I'd rewrite the rule:

Legal pork shall consist of bone in IMPS shoulder #403 and it's derivatives ( 403B, 403C, 404, 406, 406B, 406C, and 407) with a raw weight of at least 5lbs.where the animal has been broken no further rostral than Cervical vertebra C3 and no further caudal than thoracic vertebra T1 (the first rostral rib).

The pork entry must be cooked whole and intact with no butterflying, spatchcocking or other types of complete or partial separation. Processed pork (pulled, sliced, chunked etc) is not permitted to be in the competitor's cooker until 45 minutes prior to the official pork turn in time. Competitors found with processed pork in their cooker prior to the above time window will be DQ'd in the pork category.


  • The first paragraph defines what's legal with no loopholes
  • It's easy for the meat inspector - is there a bone in it? (Collars are boneless)
  • The second paragraph eliminates the ambiguities and angle shooting that goes on now.
  • Spot checking is easy - we should all know what an intact pork butt / shoulder looks like by now. Reps can spot check 10 cook sites in under 30 minutes
  • The 45 minute window is easy to enforce and gives the cooks the ability to heat final product / set sauce
Yes, 95% of compliance is still based on competitor integrity, but the rules need to be easy for the competitor to understand and for the event staff / reps to spot violations.
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Unread 11-10-2011, 04:49 PM   #15
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Jorge...not sure about being at the top of the food chain, it feels more like we're the food for the top of the food chain, but thanks.

I bet I can find at least 25 teams that have learned how to perfect their pork turn-ins using the current rules. Love 'em or hate 'em, the current rules impose no undue hardship and are pretty clear on what is/isn't allowed. The problem with making more rules, or more complicated rules, is that it makes it that much harder for new teams to get started. If contests are an extension of the KCBS mission of promoting BBQ, then creating more barriers to getting started as a new cook is counterproductive.

If you want to start tweaking rules somewhere, start with the whole TOY debacle. When teams can split and compete in 2 different contests on the same weekend and earn points for TOY, although not against the current rules, is complete horse puckey. If you're going to start rewriting a rule, tighten up and enforce #2, where a team must designate a chief cook, period. Not a different chief cook for each contest(because it doesn't really say that in the rule, does it?), but a chief cook always. If the chief cook ain't there cooking, you can win money and/or swag, but no TOY points. Or, the rest of the team must use a different team name, and the TOY points go under that different team name.
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