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Competition BBQ *On Topic Only* Discussion regarding all aspects of Competition BBQ. Experiences competing or visiting, questions, getting started, Equipment, announcements of events, Results, Reviews, Planning, etc. Questions here will be responded to with competition BBQ in mind.


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Unread 01-27-2011, 06:10 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoDeDo View Post
So based on the list David provide is a 406b or 407 a "Collar"... ?
But if it is one of those... Then it's legal (if 5lbs or over). Because they are part of Item No. 406 - Pork Shoulder, Boston Butt, Bone-In.
406b even says its a Boston Butt....

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Unread 01-27-2011, 06:28 AM   #77
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I gotta say.. I agree. IF the pork collar/collar butt/petite boston butt is a trimmed boston butt it's perfectly legal.
We use full sized Boston Butts and don't even trim much, but I would have zero heartache is someone wanted to use one.
If the cut comes from somewhere else, other than the butt end of a shoulder, then it would be illegal.

Would be nice if we could get some input from a board member.
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Unread 01-27-2011, 07:16 AM   #78
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OK..so I go to my meat supplier and he offers me these boneless Berkshire pork butts, I've never seen anything like them before and I say sure, I'll give them a try. I say they have to be 5 pounds and get them weighed to be legal. Show up at the comp, the meats are inspected and the meats get cooked. Am I considered a cheater?

If the packing labels cleary say Collar Trim Pork Butt, they are sold in the butcher case as CT or "close trim" pork roasts, and you are told its a butt, would you have any reason as a consumer to even question that?
There are so many friggin' cuts the supermarkets bombard us with its crazy. First time I saw Cushion meat, I asked what cut it was they couldn't tell me, only that the teriyaki joints used it in stir fry!

The Snake River Korobuta Pork Collars in the BBQ Collection "that are a favorite of competitive barbecuers" are 4 lbs for $35 and I would say that anyone knowingly using these in competition are not playing it straight, but it looks like its been happening for awhile.
I don't use SRF meats and don't have any plans to use the CT Butts for comps anyway.
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Unread 01-27-2011, 07:44 AM   #79
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If they are under 5lbs, they are definately illegal.
I'm not quite sure why they go thru the extra trimming and bone removal and then advertise them as for BBQ comps. Seems like it would be easier for all involved to not trim them, leave the bone in and just call them pork butts. There would be no question then.
I only seem to see them refered to as "Collar" when they are from Berkies.. maybe someone who raises or processes Berkies could shed some light.
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Unread 01-27-2011, 08:47 AM   #80
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I know one thing... not sure if they are still giving out the info now. But if you called SRF a couple of weeks ago, they rolled down the list of teams using them. Would it be wrong to ask the reps to inspect their meat if I compete aganst the? The competitor in me could care less because I'll whip your ass with my IBP pork butts. But there is no room for cheating. And that is all that this is.
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Unread 01-27-2011, 08:50 AM   #81
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Quote:
PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Picnic and/or Whole
Shoulder, weighing a minimum of five (5) pounds. Pork shall
be cooked whole (bone in or bone out) and shall not be
separated during the cooking process. At no time shall the
meat once separated be returned to a cooker.
There is the rule as it exists today. "Whole Shoulder", "Boston Butt", "Picnic". All three are clearly legal. The rule goes on to say that they may be cooked either "bone in" or "bone out". Nowhere does the rule say "..or portions thereof..." or anything similar.

Earlier I believed that it would be fairly simple for a rep inspecting meat to spot a collar that somebody may have mistakenly purchased. After seeing some additional pictures yesterday, and this morning, I'm not so sure and I agree with Bunny that it's a very tough spot for the reps to be in!

The rules and, more importantly, their intent are pretty clear to me. They exist, as written, to create a level playing field for ALL competitors. When folks start deciding that something is legal, because it isn't expressly prohibited, Pandora's Box is wide open.

EDIT: I can't wait for the day when teams start adding litigators to the lineup, and we are a lot closer to that point than many of you may believe.....allegedly.
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Unread 01-27-2011, 09:06 AM   #82
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Now if you use pork collar, can you part it and put it back on the smoker?
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Unread 01-27-2011, 09:07 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jorge View Post
There is the rule as it exists today. "Whole Shoulder", "Boston Butt", "Picnic". All three are clearly legal. The rule goes on to say that they may be cooked either "bone in" or "bone out". Nowhere does the rule say "..or portions thereof..." or anything similar.
But when I trim my 9lb IBP butt down to 6lbs isnt that a portion thereof?
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Unread 01-27-2011, 09:31 AM   #84
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Nope.. it's trimmed..and legal.
It's no different than trimming a brisket flat down to fit in the box prior to cooking.
At that point, it is no longer a flat, but a portion of the flat....and perfectly legal.
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Unread 01-27-2011, 09:31 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jorge View Post
There is the rule as it exists today. "Whole Shoulder", "Boston Butt", "Picnic". All three are clearly legal. The rule goes on to say that they may be cooked either "bone in" or "bone out". Nowhere does the rule say "..or portions thereof..." or anything similar.
I agree, but isn't it understood that meat can be trimmed as the cook sees fit, as long as it is not trimmed under 5 lb? I think I've heard ppl say if you can find a 5 lb money muscle, use it, haven't I? Don't some teams trim the MM almost all the way off, but leave it connected so it is still a single "piece" of meat? Is it different to trim your own meat or to have your butcher/packer do it? Again, as long as it starts with the whole shoulder and gets cut down, I think it's just trimming, but if it includes more meat that the IMPS definition of a Shoulder, then it's illegal.

I think Dr. BBQ should weigh in on this one! I saw him on TV where a team broke down a pork loin during a time that they weren't supposed to. Guy brought up a good point that you can buy your meat that way from the butcher, so is it worth a DQ or just a minor point deduction. Granted, TV tail gaiting is not KCBS, but it was a valid point, and isn't this the reverse? If I can legally do it after I buy it, before I show up for inspection, can I not ask my butcher to do it for me?

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Unread 01-27-2011, 09:33 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roksmith View Post
Nope.. it's trimmed..and legal.
It's no different than trimming a brisket flat down to fit in the box prior to cooking.
At that point, it is no longer a flat, but a portion of the flat....and perfectly legal.
Comparing it to brisket is somewhat disingenuous, because there are no weight requirements in the rules for brisket.
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Unread 01-27-2011, 09:37 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ique View Post
But when I trim my 9lb IBP butt down to 6lbs isnt that a portion thereof?
Absolutely. Being the honest cook, that I know you to be, I'd be confident that the 6 lb. piece of pork inspected was a butt.

That's a far cry, from someone trimming up a Shoulder for 6 lbs. of meat. I've yet to see a definitive description of what a pork collar actually is; that comes from a recognized authority.

If competition BBQ has come to the point that we are going to start splitting hairs that fine, it's in trouble.
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Unread 01-27-2011, 09:37 AM   #88
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So if the trimmed butt is still over 5lbs, then there is no issue ?
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Unread 01-27-2011, 09:51 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmprantz View Post

I think Dr. BBQ should weigh in on this one! I saw him on TV where a team broke down a pork loin during a time that they weren't supposed to. Guy brought up a good point that you can buy your meat that way from the butcher, so is it worth a DQ or just a minor point deduction. Granted, TV tail gaiting is not KCBS, but it was a valid point, and isn't this the reverse? If I can legally do it after I buy it, before I show up for inspection, can I not ask my butcher to do it for me?

dmp

That was a completely different deal. There was a guy there from the National Restaurant Association who'd written the rules and was responsible for enforcing them. We were just discussing it for TV.

But I do think I know the intent because I was actively cooking when the rule was changed from "any pork" to butt, picnic, etc. KCBS was growing and they wanted to clean up the rules and they also wanted to make it so the food was real BBQ and butts etc fit the bill.
The open poultry category was changed to chicken at that time as well.
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Unread 01-27-2011, 09:52 AM   #90
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Here is a reference document from the European Trade Commission on Meat Standardization.
http://www.unece.org/trade/agr/meeti...a01_Rev01e.pdf
It says that the collar butt and butt are interchangable and both are names for the Upper Shoulder(Boston Butt).
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