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Competition BBQ *On Topic Only* Discussion regarding all aspects of Competition BBQ. Experiences competing or visiting, questions, getting started, Equipment, announcements of events, Results, Reviews, Planning, etc. Questions here will be responded to with competition BBQ in mind.


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Unread 01-26-2011, 08:10 AM   #31
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Has anyone cooked this cut of meat?

If I set aside the fact that anyone using this cut of meat is cheating, is this really a better cut of meat? Do I have a legitimate concern that someone competing against me has an advantage?

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Unread 01-26-2011, 08:11 AM   #32
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I'm not trying to be snarky, but when I buy my competition meats from Schnuck's or Sam's, they are labeled by IBP as "Pork Butts." Since they are not labled as a Boston Butt, Picnic, or whole shoulder, can I compete with those? If not, does it become legal again if the butcher ignores the box and calls them Boston Butts in a celophane pack? A different butcher of mine in St. Louis would label the picnics as callie roasts. Does that instantly disqualify the cut of meat from KCBS competition? My father-in-law buys his competition pork roasts (Swift I think) that are called Shoulder Blade Roasts I think. Are those not legal? Again, I'm not trying to be a jerk or even talk about the SRF product, but is legality defined by the name applied to the meat or the meat itself? FWIW, MBN/MIM define the legal shoulder piece by the muscles and bones included, not by the packing name, though they do specifically exclude butts and picnics while including hams.

Far be it from me to think we should change the rules in any way, shape, or form because people would accuse me of trying to complicate things, but when I pointed out last year that the FEC100 is clearly in violation of the letter of the KCBS rules by having an electric heating element which can turn on during cooking, people here mentioned an undocumented "decision" by the board and referred to the sanity of reps. If you publically state your belief that the KCBS rules are bendable and pliable by the "good common sense" of reps in one area, it makes you look like a total hypocrite in my eyes to say that another part of the rules must be quoted and followed to the letter. This is not meant for Jorge, or any one else on in particular, just point it out....

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Unread 01-26-2011, 08:29 AM   #33
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Apparently, rules only keep honest people honest.

And as a very smart cop in California told me, "You don't figure out how to be sneaky and then only do it the once."
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Unread 01-26-2011, 08:59 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmprantz View Post
I'm not trying to be snarky, but when I buy my competition meats from Schnuck's or Sam's, they are labeled by IBP as "Pork Butts." Since they are not labled as a Boston Butt, Picnic, or whole shoulder, can I compete with those? If not, does it become legal again if the butcher ignores the box and calls them Boston Butts in a celophane pack? A different butcher of mine in St. Louis would label the picnics as callie roasts. Does that instantly disqualify the cut of meat from KCBS competition? My father-in-law buys his competition pork roasts (Swift I think) that are called Shoulder Blade Roasts I think. Are those not legal? Again, I'm not trying to be a jerk or even talk about the SRF product, but is legality defined by the name applied to the meat or the meat itself? FWIW, MBN/MIM define the legal shoulder piece by the muscles and bones included, not by the packing name, though they do specifically exclude butts and picnics while including hams.

Far be it from me to think we should change the rules in any way, shape, or form because people would accuse me of trying to complicate things, but when I pointed out last year that the FEC100 is clearly in violation of the letter of the KCBS rules by having an electric heating element which can turn on during cooking, people here mentioned an undocumented "decision" by the board and referred to the sanity of reps. If you publically state your belief that the KCBS rules are bendable and pliable by the "good common sense" of reps in one area, it makes you look like a total hypocrite in my eyes to say that another part of the rules must be quoted and followed to the letter. This is not meant for Jorge, or any one else on in particular, just point it out....

dmp
If you are getting the same cut of meat, that is clearly allowed under the existing rules I see no issue. You would be competing under the rules that exist. My understanding is that the collar meat IS a different cut. That makes it illegal whether it weighs 5 lbs. before cooking or not.

In the case of the FEC 100 the language in rule 6 allows for all of the different elements that make the FEC work. The discussion about the hot rod determined that the heat given off was insufficient to cook and as a result did not violate the rules as they are written.

The rules, in my opinion, are pretty clear about what's allowed. I'm more concerned about those that will choose to use a surgeon's precision to disect them.

The rules state what is permitted in terms of legal cuts of pork. If we want to expand the rule to what isn't permitted then I need to get a new appliance dolly to cart the thing around. In my opinion the issue isn't about inadequate rules or verbage; but about people looking for away around the rules to do something that isn't legal. I'm sure there are some people that may have cooked a collar not knowing that they were breaking the rules.....and I'm certain that there were others that knew exactly what they were doing and CHOSE to do it anyway. On a personal level, I'm looking forward to seeing somebody get caught, and having to explain away their sudden departure from competition BBQ.
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Unread 01-26-2011, 09:08 AM   #35
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dmp, you make a good point.
in another thread regarding gas and electric being allowed i sited machines such as the FEC's which clearly shouldn't be, but are, and thus, gas and electric should be allowed as well.

i have nothing wrong with them personally, just saying.

me, i';ll just stick to 6-8# bone in boston butt. not parted.
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Unread 01-26-2011, 09:11 AM   #36
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jorge, i wasn't aware of that portion of the FEC debate.

that makes it pretty clear as to WHY they are allowed.
that is dissecting the rules a bit tho, no?
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Unread 01-26-2011, 09:12 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carlyle View Post
Any one have some pictures of pork collar that meat inspectors can refer to?

Can you tell it is pork collar just by looking?
I thought I knew my piggy parts, but this looks like a boneless butt to me.

Now can someone tell me if the what is referred to as cushion meat is also known as collar meat?

Porters,

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Unread 01-26-2011, 09:16 AM   #38
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Fair enough, and I agree that if a cut of meat is not permitted, then it is not permitted, period, but if some one calls something that would otherwise be allowed a "collar," that name alone does not invalidate the entry simply because it was not labled as a "Boston Butt, Picnic, or Whole Shoulder."

As for rule 6 and the FEC100, this could be argued until we are all blue in the face, but the rule says "Propane or electric is permitted as fire starters, provided that the competition meat is not in/on the cooking device." There is no minimum level of heat required, just like there is no maximum level of loin defined in the schoulder section. In at least some models of FEC100 and Traeger grills, an electric fire starter will turn on if the fire goes out. If they get a pass because of the low BTU output of those starters, that's fine, and I'm not arguing the intent nor the spirit of the rule, but I can't see how a reasonable person could deny that it is an exception if not violation to the letter of the rule. Goose, gander, and all that!

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Unread 01-26-2011, 09:48 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmprantz View Post
As for rule 6 and the FEC100, this could be argued until we are all blue in the face, but the rule says "Propane or electric is permitted as fire starters, provided that the competition meat is not in/on the cooking device." There is no minimum level of heat required, just like there is no maximum level of loin defined in the schoulder section. In at least some models of FEC100 and Traeger grills, an electric fire starter will turn on if the fire goes out. If they get a pass because of the low BTU output of those starters, that's fine, and I'm not arguing the intent nor the spirit of the rule, but I can't see how a reasonable person could deny that it is an exception if not violation to the letter of the rule. Goose, gander, and all that!

dmp

Having cooked on FE's my entire career. I will tell you this. If you have to restart your pit, you take your meat out and light the fire. I prefer using a MAPP torch because it lights the fire faster. I also let my neighbors know what I am doing so there is never a question of what I was doing. This whole issue has been brought before the BOD on numerous times and each time they rule the exact same way. I believe the last time these issues were brought up was during the time of having the BOD of disect every rule that competitiors would bring up. Instead of reading around a rule, they should follow the rule. Plain and simple.

If you do not like a rule, bring it to the Rules Committee and they will present it. I can tell you that you are beating a dead horse on the FEC issue.
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Unread 01-26-2011, 09:55 AM   #40
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That's a good plan on using the MAPP torch and informing your neighbors Scottie. Really above board! I know it's a dead horse, and I am not now, nor have I ever really tried to get FECs deemed illegal. My whole point in bringing it up is that people were quoting the rules to declare that something which is labled "collar" illegal because it is not labled one of the three cuts listed in the rules. Quoting the rules alone does not end the discussion, because there can always be exceptions which do not follow them, as pointed out here.

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Unread 01-26-2011, 09:59 AM   #41
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Its actually a more accurate name for the cut we all know as boston butt. And that may very well be all it is, another name for the same cut. I've ordered berkshire butts before (not from SRF) that were butchered differently and looked a lot like the picture a few posts up. Doesnt matter what they call it, if it is the upper part of the front shoulder and over 5lbs should be legal.
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Unread 01-26-2011, 10:13 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmprantz View Post
That's a good plan on using the MAPP torch and informing your neighbors Scottie. Really above board! I know it's a dead horse, and I am not now, nor have I ever really tried to get FECs deemed illegal. My whole point in bringing it up is that people were quoting the rules to declare that something which is labled "collar" illegal because it is not labled one of the three cuts listed in the rules. Quoting the rules alone does not end the discussion, because there can always be exceptions which do not follow them, as pointed out here.

dmp
I think that it's reasonable to expect someone that has a done a contest or two, to be able to determine what cut of meat they are purchasing and being sure that it is either legal or not regardless of what the label says.

I rely on the rules, because that is what everyone is allegedly supposed to be following.

I understand your intent. I also understand that there are clearly people that have gone out of their way to gain some advantage, and are not within the rules as they are currently written.
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Unread 01-26-2011, 10:32 AM   #43
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Just thinking out loud on the FEC dead horse: "Propane or electric" in the third sentence probably refers to the previous sentence which says "Gas and electric heat sources." I would probably think it's a lot less of a variance if they changed the wording of the third sentence to also read "Gas and electric heat sources." Some people hate change and see no reason to alter the rules, but in my detail oriented mind, that makes it a bit clearer that a "starter" which does not produce noticable "heat" is okay. I can also see how and why the board rules the way it does and FECs are allowed...okay, enough kicking. It really wasn't the point to begin with.

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Unread 01-26-2011, 11:04 AM   #44
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Quote:
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I think that it's reasonable to expect someone that has a done a contest or two, to be able to determine what cut of meat they are purchasing and being sure that it is either legal or not regardless of what the label says.
Yo Jorge, Before I posted the above picture with the two pork collars, I would have agreed with your statement. Those two pieces of meat look just like boneless butts to me and I have butchered many a hog and cooked many a contest. I am sure that even an experienced contest meat inspector would look at those two pieces of meat and passed them for inspection.

With all these big money contest that are up and coming, maybe it is time for the KCBS to start tagging meats as they do at the HLSR.

Porters,

Juggy
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Unread 01-26-2011, 12:14 PM   #45
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I do not compete and have no plans to either, but, I was intrigued that somehow collars would be an advantage in cooking for a competition. Got me to thinking it might be a better cut to cook at home. I started looking into it and from what I can gather, it is just the upper portion of the whole shoulder cut and is the part of the shoulder from the blade bone upwards to the top of the spine. It appears to be both part of the whole shoulder and at least, in part, a portion of the whole Boston Butt cut. Seems that in terms of description it absolutely meets the requirements for competition, it also seems to offer no real advantage for cooking at home from a normal butt.
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