Possible KCBS rules changes

I'm all in favor of keeping garnish too. I like the fact we (KCBS) are unique and I'll support Carolyn in this as long as I'm around.

Yes, I'm aware that it is a meat contest. Someone said something to the effect that if the garnish makes the meat look better, a judge took the garnish into account. My response to that is basically "big deal". It's not a sauce contest either but our shiney, perfectly placed sauce on the meat makes the meat look better. Not burning it makes the meat look better. There are a lot of things we can do to make the meat look better. Why are we bashing garnish when it's only ONE thing we do to improve the appearance of our boxes? If we outlaw garnish, sauce better be next. See how ridiculous this is getting?
 
First off, let me say that I just took my CBJ class and have no actual experience. Take what I say with a grain of salt...

I found it very confusing on how to judge based on one CBJ class. I am in no way saying my instruction was inadequate, just that the KCBS doesn't exactly do a good job telling you what the scoring system is supposed to mean. I understand that the CBJ is a ticket to a judging apprenticeship where you learn the finer details from the other experienced judges at comps.

As a future competitor, I learned from the class that garnish is for more than good looks. It keeps the meat from sitting in a puddle of juices and sauce and keeps it from sliding around the box. Thus the final product will be better packaged before serving.

I don't think garnish should affect scores, but hundreds of cook teams know that presentation will have a subtle effect on the perception of your product. I think the KCBS does then "require" garnish by default.
 
DivaHerself said:
The prospect of contracting salmonella is far greater when patronizing local restaurants. Funny, HD is all over our butts at some contests, most usually in counties where restaurants are swarming with rats and cockroaches -- which I haven't seen in any BBQ camp.

Getting garnish is more difficult for you. So? Getting sauce and rub is more difficult for me -- we make our own. Hell, getting TO a contest is more difficult for us -- we drive up to 17 hours one way to find one. Everybody's got their own hurdles, and the only place the playing field is perfectly level is inside that 9x9 styrofoam box.

As for improvement -- well, now we finally come to the "meat" of the matter. I find that as meat scores improve, concerns over garnish diminish. Nobody turns in 100% perfect meat every time not even Myron. Perhaps that's more difficult than arguing about garnish in the off-season.
Click to expand...

I, for one, am not arguing. It really doesnt matter to me. I merely
posed the question (reference at the very top):

Is it time to ditch garnish? There honestly is no way to ignore it.
The others have it gone...

> Getting garnish is more difficult for you. So?
You were the one making the statement. I was merely pointing out
that your statement was off and false, at least in my case. I wasn't
whining. I was, in essence, addressing your point.


> Hell, getting TO a contest is more difficult for us -- we drive up
> to 17 hours one way to find one.

I believe ya, and we can't do it. No way, no how. Dont have the
luxury of that much time away from work. If we cant get to it within
a 2 or 3 hour drive, we can't get there... But, that's us. That's about
99% of the reason why I work with city leaders, project managers, etc
who organize these so as to *grow* more cookoffs (because I enjoy
competing and can't drive that far).


> Getting sauce and rub is more difficult for me -- we make our own.

I special order the meat, and I have all the spices/rubs ordered and
delivered (Pendereys, etc). Come to think of it, I cannot think of a
competition we've competed in within the last 5+- yeas where we
used ANY consumable product purchased at the local store (other than
chuck roast we use in chili). No biggie. Always make my own sauce,
but I'm trying a combination of Blues Hog & BH Tennesse Red for
giggles... No local store carry that. Hell, I dont think it's carried
anywhere in the state... Always my own rub, using Pendereys and
Mild Bills spices (I'm not in Texas, they ship them to me). What, is
this now a "compare who jumps through more hoops to compete"
thing? That's silly, unnecessary, and completely off topic.

Wait. My bad. I use chicken thighs purchased at the local store
for the KCBS cookoff. My bad. Ok, chicken thighs and chuck roast
used in chili. That's it. Not even so much as black pepper is purchased here....



I merely asked "Is it time to ditch garnish?".


Somehow this was mistaken as an assault to the
very foundation of KCBS. It's not, nor was it intended to be. It's not
even a gripe about ordering and fetching greens. It's not.


I'm done. I'm tired of defending myself vs. talking about a topic.

Really. Simply this: The way the rules read (for judges), it's
impossible to do what they're being asked. As a result (of this and other
stuff), many teams either despise judges or the judging process (not
me). I posed a question as to whether it should be reconsidered.

No more; no less.


I'm done trying to discuss something when it's apparent very
few will actually discuss the topic. I'll drop it. Matter of fact:


Moderator, is there a way I can delete this whole topic/thread?
 
Lake Dogs said:
You might find it interesting that I've proposed to at very least 14 organizers that they either adopt KCBS rules and sanctioning and/or that they change from GBA and MBN to KCBS. One of the places that I referenced above is changing this coming year to KCBS "style" as a result of my efforts. They want a year of "lets try this" before they go the sanctioning route.... F Y I. I took CASI from 1 sanctioned cookoff in the state to now 8. I plan on doing similar for/with KCBS.
Click to expand...

I'm sure we all appreciate your enthusiasm. However, there are quite a few folks who have been very active in promoting KCBS here in Georgia for many years, and have been doing a fine job. You might want to get to know some of them before you don the mantle of KCBS prophet for our state.

No offense, just sayin...

-Gowan
 
Jeff_in_KC said:
I'm all in favor of keeping garnish too. I like the fact we (KCBS) are unique and I'll support Carolyn in this as long as I'm around.

Yes, I'm aware that it is a meat contest. Someone said something to the effect that if the garnish makes the meat look better, a judge took the garnish into account. My response to that is basically "big deal". It's not a sauce contest either but our shiney, perfectly placed sauce on the meat makes the meat look better. Not burning it makes the meat look better. There are a lot of things we can do to make the meat look better. Why are we bashing garnish when it's only ONE thing we do to improve the appearance of our boxes? If we outlaw garnish, sauce better be next. See how ridiculous this is getting?
Click to expand...

Jeff, I completely agree with you, 100%!!! However, please read how
the judges are instructed. Regarding garnish, they cannot abide by this.
It cannot be humanly done. So, I asked, either consider dropping the
garnish, or please reword the rules/instructions.
 
CivilWarBBQ said:
I'm sure we all appreciate your enthusiasm. However, there are quite a few folks who have been very active in promoting KCBS here in Georgia for many years, and have been doing a fine job. You might want to get to know some of them before you don the mantle of KCBS prophet for our state.

No offense, just sayin...

-Gowan
Click to expand...

Gowan,

I am not a KCBS profit for the state. Will never be. I'm work with
promoters and event coordinators and assist them in which style to
choose and why one makes sense vs. another.

Y'alls focus obviously has been N GA. Finally there's Waynesboro
and Oconee in the central part of the state. They're new, and
small, and wonderful, and I had nothing to do with either.

I was merely trying to explain to folks that I'm not anti-KCBS. That's
it. With any luck though, we'll have a few more KCBS cookoffs here
in the center of the state in the next few years. And, my appologies,
the damned new Macon one went MBN vs. KCBS. I found out about
them too late... Still working on that one. Maybe a joint sanctioning
in the future...

No offense taken. Like I said, I didnt claim to be KCBS profit, I'm not
a KCBS profit, and I never will be a KCBS profit.
 
Lake Dogs said:
I, for one, am not arguing. It really doesnt matter to me. I merely
posed the question (reference at the very top):

Is it time to ditch garnish? There honestly is no way to ignore it.
The others have it gone...

> Getting garnish is more difficult for you. So?
You were the one making the statement. I was merely pointing out
that your statement was off and false, at least in my case. I wasn't
whining. I was, in essence, addressing your point.


> Hell, getting TO a contest is more difficult for us -- we drive up
> to 17 hours one way to find one.

I believe ya, and we can't do it. No way, no how. Dont have the
luxury of that much time away from work. If we cant get to it within
a 2 or 3 hour drive, we can't get there... But, that's us. That's about
99% of the reason why I work with city leaders, project managers, etc
who organize these so as to *grow* more cookoffs (because I enjoy
competing and can't drive that far).


> Getting sauce and rub is more difficult for me -- we make our own.

I special order the meat, and I have all the spices/rubs ordered and
delivered (Pendereys, etc). Come to think of it, I cannot think of a
competition we've competed in within the last 5+- yeas where we
used ANY consumable product purchased at the local store (other than
chuck roast we use in chili). No biggie. Always make my own sauce,
but I'm trying a combination of Blues Hog & BH Tennesse Red for
giggles... No local store carry that. Hell, I dont think it's carried
anywhere in the state... Always my own rub, using Pendereys and
Mild Bills spices (I'm not in Texas, they ship them to me). What, is
this now a "compare who jumps through more hoops to compete"
thing? That's silly, unnecessary, and completely off topic.

Wait. My bad. I use chicken thighs purchased at the local store
for the KCBS cookoff. My bad. Ok, chicken thighs and chuck roast
used in chili. That's it. Not even so much as black pepper is purchased here....



I merely asked "Is it time to ditch garnish?".


Somehow this was mistaken as an assault to the
very foundation of KCBS. It's not, nor was it intended to be. It's not
even a gripe about ordering and fetching greens. It's not.


I'm done. I'm tired of defending myself vs. talking about a topic.

Really. Simply this: The way the rules read (for judges), it's
impossible to do what they're being asked. As a result (of this and other
stuff), many teams either despise judges or the judging process (not
me). I posed a question as to whether it should be reconsidered.

No more; no less.


I'm done trying to discuss something when it's apparent very
few will actually discuss the topic. I'll drop it. Matter of fact:


Moderator, is there a way I can delete this whole topic/thread?
Click to expand...

I don't know that anyone took offense to your question. I think they did wonder where it was coming from based on some of your reasoning. I know I did, due to references to other organizations. I thought it was a fairly reasonable and friendly give and take.
 
Jorge said:
I don't know that anyone took offense to your question. I think they did wonder where it was coming from based on some of your reasoning. I know I did, due to references to other organizations. I thought it was a fairly reasonable and friendly give and take.
Click to expand...

Jorge, yours absolutely WAS (reasonable [more than fairly too] and
friendly give and take).
 
Jorge said:
I don't think that is necessary, or warranted. Perhaps another moderator will view the thread differently.
Click to expand...

J,

Thanks.

I didnt mean to urinate on folks' wheaties. I didnt mean to call into
question the very foundation of KCBS. As I said more than a few times,
I think KCBS is the premier BBQ sanctioning body.

I happen to think that good debate is a good thing, and now is the
time to debate topics such as this, not during a season.

I actually like the argument of it (garnish) being a unique characteristic of
KCBS. However, other than this, noone has presented any other
argument. When they do, they're basically saying "rules dont matter
than they cannot be enforced." To that I say "well then, how about
changing the rules so that they can be enforced".

Every sanctioning body has it's *issues*, and the others that I'm
familiar with have MANY more serious issues than KCBS.

I was merely posing a question. I will not defend this any longer, and
I will certainly not defend myself any longer, as frankly it's unnecessary
to do so.
 
Jorge said:
I don't think that is necessary, or warranted. Perhaps another moderator will view the thread differently.
Click to expand...


I agree Jorge. I think everyone remained calm and there was no name calling or other things that bring a thread down.

Let's face it, I believe that Lake Dog wants KCBS to conform to what the sanctioning bodies have done? I may be corrected on this, but I know that for sure FBA was formed in the last 10 years and baiscally modeled their body after the KCBS, except for no garnish. Now maybe some sanctioning body in Texas was before the KCBS, but I do not think any of them are still in existence. I don't think that IBCA is older, as I want to say that Lynn stated it was after the KCBS was formed. Garnish in KCBS for their blind judging is unique and that is what separates KCBS from other sanctioning bodies. I guess the way that I llok at it is, if you don't like it, don't cook KCBS contest. Or in the alternative, don't use garnish, as it is clearly stated int he rules that garnish is not required. But to make call to arms over it, I am not sure if that is correct either...

***Please understand that this post was in no way any slight to any other sanctioning body.
 
Scottie said:
I agree Jorge. I think everyone remained calm and there was no name calling or other things that bring a thread down.

Let's face it, I believe that Lake Dog wants KCBS to conform to what the sanctioning bodies have done? I may be corrected on this, but I know that for sure FBA was formed in the last 10 years and baiscally modeled their body after the KCBS, except for no garnish. Now maybe some sanctioning body in Texas was before the KCBS, but I do not think any of them are still in existence. I don't think that IBCA is older, as I want to say that Lynn stated it was after the KCBS was formed. Garnish in KCBS for their blind judging is unique and that is what separates KCBS from other sanctioning bodies. I guess the way that I llok at it is, if you don't like it, don't cook KCBS contest. Or in the alternative, don't use garnish, as it is clearly stated int he rules that garnish is not required. But to make call to arms over it, I am not sure if that is correct either...

***Please understand that this post was in no way any slight to any other sanctioning body.
Click to expand...

Scottie,

Respectfully:

> Garnish in KCBS for their blind judging is unique and that is
> what separates KCBS from other sanctioning bodies.

While it is unique, IMHO you think too little of KCBS if this is what
separates KCBS from the others... KCBS is a superior organization,
with SUPERIOR judging, process, flow, etc. SUPERIOR. None
close. MIM was (IMHO), but not there. Then they decided to ditch
it, and so what was left became MBN... I digress.

> if you don't like it, don't cook KCBS contest.

I imagine those who dont like it dont cook in it... What's your point?
Me/us perhaps? In what words above did you perhaps derive that I or my teammates dont "like it"? If I didnt like it, I wouldnt care enough to
pose the question in the first place. Matter of fact, the farthest
contests for me to compete are those sanctioned by KCBS. We go there
because we enjoy them MORE, not less.


> Lake Dog wants KCBS to conform

There! You articulated it. Thanks. Strangely, I hate conformity itself,
because ordinarily conformity breeds bland. It's usually conformity for
the sake of conformity. So, I worded my initial question wrong when
I stated the others are doing it... Conformity be damned (IMHO).

HOWEVER, I am asking that they either re-word the instructions/rules
so as to a) embrace the darned difference that garnish brings and get
it in there, or b) remove it altogether, as there is no way a human can
judge it and not take it into account (the way the rules state it today).


> But to make call to arms over it, I am not sure if that is correct either...

Exactly. I'm not! Didn't! Never did (call to arms). That's what annoyed
me. I'm being raked over the coals for no reason, other than apparently
this is a sacred issue. My bad.


Sarcasm <with a humoristic intent> coming:

There. There's another suggestion. Note the rules in the rule book
that are sacred and question the foundation of the organization. That
way we'll know to not ask the question.


-The Dawg
 
Lake Dogs said:
I was merely trying to explain to folks that I'm not anti-KCBS. That'sit. With any luck though, we'll have a few more KCBS cookoffs herein the center of the state in the next few years. And, my appologies, the damned new Macon one went MBN vs. KCBS. I found out about them too late... Still working on that one. Maybe a joint sanctioning in the future...
Click to expand...

No worries, I figured you didn't intend to come off the way it sounded.

Your point about most KCBS events being in the northern half of the state is well taken. This isn't by design so much as circumstance. With the long established MIM/MBN shows, FBA gaining traction and now GBA popping up to offer an MBN-like all pork format on a KCBS budget there has been a lot of competition for sanctioning down South.

As for the Macon show, I doubt there is much chance of you swaying those folks since they have been tapped to become the new MBN Championship event in place of Memphis in May starting this year. I cooked there last fall with JOS (my first MBN experience) and I have to say I loved the showmanship aspect of the contest! Not much chance of my regular team doing whole hog though, since we are sponsored by Primo Grills.

Oh and sorry you felt like you were blasted for your initial post. These forums can be pretty contentious at times, and when you put up an opinion post the two best strategies seem to be either to be prepared to defend against all comers or just let your statement stand alone and not address any rebuttals. The good news is will tone down once the weather improves and everyone is busy cooking again instead of debating.

Aloha,

-gf
 
Capn Kev said:
Thanks for the info Merl. Good to see you the other night in Parker. Thanks for putting on the class! In your post above, you touched on one of the questions I failed to ask before the end of the night. ...and that is, is there a "refresher" course required, or is there a minimum number of contests per year that a CBJ needs to fulfill in order to maintain their CBJ status?

Also, the only minor complaint I had about last Friday night's CBJ class was that we were not really presented with a box that would have score 9's. So how is a judge supposed to know what "great" is if they have no sense of it going into a competition? I may have been a bit biased due to the fact that I have cooked competitions and have seen and tasted some winning entries. :wink:

Your insight is appreciated.

Kevin
Click to expand...
Some of the kcbs contest's struggle to get 100% certified kcbs judges, some events struggle getting enough judges. I've been at a few events where the organizers find people off the street to judge. The people off the street don't have a clue, someone at their table is explaining the rules and what to look for. I'm guessing the low scores are comming from these folks, not the certifed judges. Just look at KCBS Events for the year and you'll see not all events are 100% CBJ. Maybe this isn't FAIR:!: As far as refresher, maybe! NOT:!: Anyway if I judge 3 or more contest a year why would I want to take a refresher. Your comment^^^ "refresher" course required, or is there a minimum number of contests per year that a CBJ needs to fulfill in order to maintain their CBJ status? Some people would have to do a lot of driving in order to meet your criteria. Not every city has 10 contest a year:!:
 
CivilWarBBQ said:
No worries, I figured you didn't intend to come off the way it sounded.

Your point about most KCBS events being in the northern half of the state is well taken. This isn't by design so much as circumstance. With the long established MIM/MBN shows, FBA gaining traction and now GBA popping up to offer an MBN-like all pork format on a KCBS budget there has been a lot of competition for sanctioning down South.

As for the Macon show, I doubt there is much chance of you swaying those folks since they have been tapped to become the new MBN Championship event in place of Memphis in May starting this year. I cooked there last fall with JOS (my first MBN experience) and I have to say I loved the showmanship aspect of the contest! Not much chance of my regular team doing whole hog though, since we are sponsored by Primo Grills.

Oh and sorry you felt like you were blasted for your initial post. These forums can be pretty contentious at times, and when you put up an opinion post the two best strategies seem to be either to be prepared to defend against all comers or just let your statement stand alone and not address any rebuttals. The good news is will tone down once the weather improves and everyone is busy cooking again instead of debating.

Aloha,

-gf
Click to expand...

We have the same problem with not participating in whole hog too. It's
takes a 2nd large cooker, one that I'm just not ready to fund. I enjoy
the on-site, but as an opinion, I think it's unnecessary. It does add a
nice difference though... The other side is that it requires to cook a lot
more meat, especially if you plan to make finals. I loved the panic seen
by Trigg & whats-his-name on Pitmasters when they made rib finals
at Vienna...

I'll be darned, the only reason we didnt see you in Macon was $$$. We
just didnt have it this year. 2010 will be better, but the team has put
that one on our "wait and see what happens" list. Hey, if you liked that
event, you may enjoy the MBN one in Milledgeville. This is the one I
get shafted into cooking. Usually about 35 teams+-. Late October.

Will you guys be at Lake Oconee in September? That's now our #1
event, in an RV park on the lake. Being a Lake Sinclair type-o-guy, we
dont get a lakeside spot. However, it's a wonderful venue, with LOADS
of space for everyone. Matter of fact, if there is one problem with it,
we're almost too spread out.... KCBS, and Jay Weems does a GREAT
job with organizing it.
 
Ford said:
Maybe it's nitpicking but I like garnish. It improves presentation.
Click to expand...

when people refer to a bed a parsley as a nice presentation it makes me laugh. I feel like a landscaper taking care of someones lawn. its useless, takes alot of time, is unfair to new teams starting out that dont know what to put in their boxes. I know that its written in the rules what an acceptable garnish is but thats just not enough, please no copy and pastes from the rule book. they might as well hand out astro turf pieces to lay in the box. the presentation of the meat should be about the meat, not who could line their parsley up better. I spent lots of money and LOTS of time in culinary school learning how to garnish and parsley beds were never referred to as something that enhanced the presentation of anything. I BET AT PARSLEY CONTESTS THEY DONT LINE THEIR BOXES WITH BRISKET!!!!!
 
I'm sorry, KCBS is not unique in the garnish area, PNWBA, which started at the same time, also allows garnish and uses a similar set of rules for judging, etc.

In TX most carry a paper towel roll to turn in to sop up the juices. Aint that grand, something has to keep the foil from getting soiled.

I have judged in TX and the boxes looked like a jumbled mess as the meat slides around and gets dumped. Of course, they don't judge appearance as the only score given is a 2 to 10. The instructions are if it looks like BBQ, smells like BBQ, tastes like BBQ, then it must be BBQ. Can't have no sauce or juice, must be dry as da bone. Score it 2 to 10.

Come cook if you want, I'll take KCBS/PNWBA with all the faults.
 
The question of did any one win a category with out garnish recently didnt Smokin Cracker do that last year maybe even a G.C. remember now I have a short memory.
 
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