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Competition BBQ *On Topic Only* Discussion regarding all aspects of Competition BBQ. Experiences competing or visiting, questions, getting started, Equipment, announcements of events, Results, Reviews, Planning, etc. Questions here will be responded to with competition BBQ in mind.


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Unread 02-01-2010, 02:19 PM   #31
Lake Dogs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jorge View Post
I don't think that is necessary, or warranted. Perhaps another moderator will view the thread differently.
J,

Thanks.

I didnt mean to urinate on folks' wheaties. I didnt mean to call into
question the very foundation of KCBS. As I said more than a few times,
I think KCBS is the premier BBQ sanctioning body.

I happen to think that good debate is a good thing, and now is the
time to debate topics such as this, not during a season.

I actually like the argument of it (garnish) being a unique characteristic of
KCBS. However, other than this, noone has presented any other
argument. When they do, they're basically saying "rules dont matter
than they cannot be enforced." To that I say "well then, how about
changing the rules so that they can be enforced".

Every sanctioning body has it's *issues*, and the others that I'm
familiar with have MANY more serious issues than KCBS.

I was merely posing a question. I will not defend this any longer, and
I will certainly not defend myself any longer, as frankly it's unnecessary
to do so.
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Unread 02-01-2010, 02:22 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jorge View Post
I don't think that is necessary, or warranted. Perhaps another moderator will view the thread differently.

I agree Jorge. I think everyone remained calm and there was no name calling or other things that bring a thread down.

Let's face it, I believe that Lake Dog wants KCBS to conform to what the sanctioning bodies have done? I may be corrected on this, but I know that for sure FBA was formed in the last 10 years and baiscally modeled their body after the KCBS, except for no garnish. Now maybe some sanctioning body in Texas was before the KCBS, but I do not think any of them are still in existence. I don't think that IBCA is older, as I want to say that Lynn stated it was after the KCBS was formed. Garnish in KCBS for their blind judging is unique and that is what separates KCBS from other sanctioning bodies. I guess the way that I llok at it is, if you don't like it, don't cook KCBS contest. Or in the alternative, don't use garnish, as it is clearly stated int he rules that garnish is not required. But to make call to arms over it, I am not sure if that is correct either...

***Please understand that this post was in no way any slight to any other sanctioning body.
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Unread 02-01-2010, 02:50 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scottie View Post
I agree Jorge. I think everyone remained calm and there was no name calling or other things that bring a thread down.

Let's face it, I believe that Lake Dog wants KCBS to conform to what the sanctioning bodies have done? I may be corrected on this, but I know that for sure FBA was formed in the last 10 years and baiscally modeled their body after the KCBS, except for no garnish. Now maybe some sanctioning body in Texas was before the KCBS, but I do not think any of them are still in existence. I don't think that IBCA is older, as I want to say that Lynn stated it was after the KCBS was formed. Garnish in KCBS for their blind judging is unique and that is what separates KCBS from other sanctioning bodies. I guess the way that I llok at it is, if you don't like it, don't cook KCBS contest. Or in the alternative, don't use garnish, as it is clearly stated int he rules that garnish is not required. But to make call to arms over it, I am not sure if that is correct either...

***Please understand that this post was in no way any slight to any other sanctioning body.
Scottie,

Respectfully:

> Garnish in KCBS for their blind judging is unique and that is
> what separates KCBS from other sanctioning bodies.

While it is unique, IMHO you think too little of KCBS if this is what
separates KCBS from the others... KCBS is a superior organization,
with SUPERIOR judging, process, flow, etc. SUPERIOR. None
close. MIM was (IMHO), but not there. Then they decided to ditch
it, and so what was left became MBN... I digress.

> if you don't like it, don't cook KCBS contest.

I imagine those who dont like it dont cook in it... What's your point?
Me/us perhaps? In what words above did you perhaps derive that I or my teammates dont "like it"? If I didnt like it, I wouldnt care enough to
pose the question in the first place. Matter of fact, the farthest
contests for me to compete are those sanctioned by KCBS. We go there
because we enjoy them MORE, not less.


> Lake Dog wants KCBS to conform

There! You articulated it. Thanks. Strangely, I hate conformity itself,
because ordinarily conformity breeds bland. It's usually conformity for
the sake of conformity. So, I worded my initial question wrong when
I stated the others are doing it... Conformity be damned (IMHO).

HOWEVER, I am asking that they either re-word the instructions/rules
so as to a) embrace the darned difference that garnish brings and get
it in there, or b) remove it altogether, as there is no way a human can
judge it and not take it into account (the way the rules state it today).


> But to make call to arms over it, I am not sure if that is correct either...

Exactly. I'm not! Didn't! Never did (call to arms). That's what annoyed
me. I'm being raked over the coals for no reason, other than apparently
this is a sacred issue. My bad.


Sarcasm <with a humoristic intent> coming:

There. There's another suggestion. Note the rules in the rule book
that are sacred and question the foundation of the organization. That
way we'll know to not ask the question.


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Unread 02-01-2010, 02:52 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lake Dogs View Post
I was merely trying to explain to folks that I'm not anti-KCBS. That'sit. With any luck though, we'll have a few more KCBS cookoffs herein the center of the state in the next few years. And, my appologies, the damned new Macon one went MBN vs. KCBS. I found out about them too late... Still working on that one. Maybe a joint sanctioning in the future...
No worries, I figured you didn't intend to come off the way it sounded.

Your point about most KCBS events being in the northern half of the state is well taken. This isn't by design so much as circumstance. With the long established MIM/MBN shows, FBA gaining traction and now GBA popping up to offer an MBN-like all pork format on a KCBS budget there has been a lot of competition for sanctioning down South.

As for the Macon show, I doubt there is much chance of you swaying those folks since they have been tapped to become the new MBN Championship event in place of Memphis in May starting this year. I cooked there last fall with JOS (my first MBN experience) and I have to say I loved the showmanship aspect of the contest! Not much chance of my regular team doing whole hog though, since we are sponsored by Primo Grills.

Oh and sorry you felt like you were blasted for your initial post. These forums can be pretty contentious at times, and when you put up an opinion post the two best strategies seem to be either to be prepared to defend against all comers or just let your statement stand alone and not address any rebuttals. The good news is will tone down once the weather improves and everyone is busy cooking again instead of debating.

Aloha,

-gf
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Unread 02-01-2010, 03:10 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Capn Kev View Post
Thanks for the info Merl. Good to see you the other night in Parker. Thanks for putting on the class! In your post above, you touched on one of the questions I failed to ask before the end of the night. ...and that is, is there a "refresher" course required, or is there a minimum number of contests per year that a CBJ needs to fulfill in order to maintain their CBJ status?

Also, the only minor complaint I had about last Friday night's CBJ class was that we were not really presented with a box that would have score 9's. So how is a judge supposed to know what "great" is if they have no sense of it going into a competition? I may have been a bit biased due to the fact that I have cooked competitions and have seen and tasted some winning entries.

Your insight is appreciated.

Kevin
Some of the kcbs contest's struggle to get 100% certified kcbs judges, some events struggle getting enough judges. I've been at a few events where the organizers find people off the street to judge. The people off the street don't have a clue, someone at their table is explaining the rules and what to look for. I'm guessing the low scores are comming from these folks, not the certifed judges. Just look at KCBS Events for the year and you'll see not all events are 100% CBJ. Maybe this isn't FAIR As far as refresher, maybe! NOT Anyway if I judge 3 or more contest a year why would I want to take a refresher. Your comment^^^ "refresher" course required, or is there a minimum number of contests per year that a CBJ needs to fulfill in order to maintain their CBJ status? Some people would have to do a lot of driving in order to meet your criteria. Not every city has 10 contest a year
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Unread 02-01-2010, 03:10 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CivilWarBBQ View Post
No worries, I figured you didn't intend to come off the way it sounded.

Your point about most KCBS events being in the northern half of the state is well taken. This isn't by design so much as circumstance. With the long established MIM/MBN shows, FBA gaining traction and now GBA popping up to offer an MBN-like all pork format on a KCBS budget there has been a lot of competition for sanctioning down South.

As for the Macon show, I doubt there is much chance of you swaying those folks since they have been tapped to become the new MBN Championship event in place of Memphis in May starting this year. I cooked there last fall with JOS (my first MBN experience) and I have to say I loved the showmanship aspect of the contest! Not much chance of my regular team doing whole hog though, since we are sponsored by Primo Grills.

Oh and sorry you felt like you were blasted for your initial post. These forums can be pretty contentious at times, and when you put up an opinion post the two best strategies seem to be either to be prepared to defend against all comers or just let your statement stand alone and not address any rebuttals. The good news is will tone down once the weather improves and everyone is busy cooking again instead of debating.

Aloha,

-gf
We have the same problem with not participating in whole hog too. It's
takes a 2nd large cooker, one that I'm just not ready to fund. I enjoy
the on-site, but as an opinion, I think it's unnecessary. It does add a
nice difference though... The other side is that it requires to cook a lot
more meat, especially if you plan to make finals. I loved the panic seen
by Trigg & whats-his-name on Pitmasters when they made rib finals
at Vienna...

I'll be darned, the only reason we didnt see you in Macon was $$$. We
just didnt have it this year. 2010 will be better, but the team has put
that one on our "wait and see what happens" list. Hey, if you liked that
event, you may enjoy the MBN one in Milledgeville. This is the one I
get shafted into cooking. Usually about 35 teams+-. Late October.

Will you guys be at Lake Oconee in September? That's now our #1
event, in an RV park on the lake. Being a Lake Sinclair type-o-guy, we
dont get a lakeside spot. However, it's a wonderful venue, with LOADS
of space for everyone. Matter of fact, if there is one problem with it,
we're almost too spread out.... KCBS, and Jay Weems does a GREAT
job with organizing it.
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Unread 02-01-2010, 03:43 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ford View Post
Maybe it's nitpicking but I like garnish. It improves presentation.
when people refer to a bed a parsley as a nice presentation it makes me laugh. I feel like a landscaper taking care of someones lawn. its useless, takes alot of time, is unfair to new teams starting out that dont know what to put in their boxes. I know that its written in the rules what an acceptable garnish is but thats just not enough, please no copy and pastes from the rule book. they might as well hand out astro turf pieces to lay in the box. the presentation of the meat should be about the meat, not who could line their parsley up better. I spent lots of money and LOTS of time in culinary school learning how to garnish and parsley beds were never referred to as something that enhanced the presentation of anything. I BET AT PARSLEY CONTESTS THEY DONT LINE THEIR BOXES WITH BRISKET!!!!!
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Unread 02-01-2010, 04:14 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chopshop View Post
I spent lots of money and LOTS of time in culinary school learning how to garnish
...Paul? Is that you??




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Unread 02-01-2010, 04:52 PM   #39
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I'm sorry, KCBS is not unique in the garnish area, PNWBA, which started at the same time, also allows garnish and uses a similar set of rules for judging, etc.

In TX most carry a paper towel roll to turn in to sop up the juices. Aint that grand, something has to keep the foil from getting soiled.

I have judged in TX and the boxes looked like a jumbled mess as the meat slides around and gets dumped. Of course, they don't judge appearance as the only score given is a 2 to 10. The instructions are if it looks like BBQ, smells like BBQ, tastes like BBQ, then it must be BBQ. Can't have no sauce or juice, must be dry as da bone. Score it 2 to 10.

Come cook if you want, I'll take KCBS/PNWBA with all the faults.
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Unread 02-01-2010, 05:13 PM   #40
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The question of did any one win a category with out garnish recently didnt Smokin Cracker do that last year maybe even a G.C. remember now I have a short memory.
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Unread 02-01-2010, 06:01 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smoke'n ice View Post
i'm sorry, kcbs is not unique in the garnish area, pnwba, which started at the same time, also allows garnish and uses a similar set of rules for judging, etc.
kcbs - 1985
pnmbw - 1991
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Unread 02-01-2010, 06:43 PM   #42
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I wish they'd get rid of garnish it's a waste of money, for the team that is.
Usually it's just thrown away.
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Unread 02-01-2010, 06:51 PM   #43
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My personal take is garnish is good, but kale should be allowed. It's the perfect garnish - looks great, cheap, simple to prep and it takes a blowtorch to wilt the stuff. I use it exclusively in non-sanctioned contests and it takes less than three minutes for me to build a kale box, a fraction of the time required for parsley.
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Unread 02-01-2010, 06:53 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chopshop View Post
when people refer to a bed a parsley as a nice presentation it makes me laugh.
Not me... I don't start laughing til I get the check at the awards ceremony confirming how nice my boxes look.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chopshop View Post
I feel like a landscaper taking care of someones lawn. its useless, takes alot of time, is unfair to new teams starting out that dont know what to put in their boxes.
Are you SERIOUS about this??? You think it's unfair to new teams who don't know what to put in their boxes??? Let me say this - and it's not a knock on new teams because we've ALL been there - but most new teams don't have a clue what to put in their boxes when it comes to garnish OR meat! That's just the way it is. And you know what... they LEARN. They can learn how to garnish just like they learn how to cook and what to cook. Like Phil says - anyone can cook great BBQ but you have to learn HOW to compete. Garnish is part of that. If we were gonna be fair to all the new teams, we'd explain step by step, give them our recipes and build their boxes for them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chopshop View Post
I know that its written in the rules what an acceptable garnish is but thats just not enough, please no copy and pastes from the rule book. they might as well hand out astro turf pieces to lay in the box.
This I have proposed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chopshop View Post
the presentation of the meat should be about the meat, not who could line their parsley up better. I spent lots of money and LOTS of time in culinary school learning how to garnish and parsley beds were never referred to as something that enhanced the presentation of anything.
So you spent money on culinary school and still can't make a parsley bed look good? It's still about the meat, regardless of whether or not parsley and lettuce are there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chopshop View Post
I BET AT PARSLEY CONTESTS THEY DONT LINE THEIR BOXES WITH BRISKET!!!!!
How do you know? Maybe they do. Have you ever been to a parsley contest to be able to definitively make this statement?
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Unread 02-01-2010, 08:59 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_in_KC View Post

So you spent money on culinary school and still can't make a parsley bed look good? It's still about the meat, regardless of whether or not parsley and lettuce are there.
well now i now who the parsley bandit is. when they were discussing the parsley topic at the kcbs banquet were you the guy holding the sign that said "parsley has feelings too!! LET THEM STAY IN THE BOX"

my boxes look good i hired the local landscaper to get them ready. I too was a new team( ocean county pig assassins) at the 06 guitarbeque and was unsure of what to put in the box for garnish. i think we added a few sprigs of parsley in fear of being disqualified for some silly garnish rule. i think we took a 4th in brisket and 6th in chicken. not bad for 3 drunks cooking on a 25 dollar smoker who never smoked a piece of meat in their lives. if it werent for the old douche next to us who misinformed us on the way we should garnish our boxes we probably would have done better. if you disagree your full of s---! If it were about the meat and only the meat then there would be no parsley in the box. Why is it every time a new suggestion comes out people jump all over it? probably because half the people who compete are not cooks simply people who read a piece of paper the entire contest that tells them when to flip it when to spray it when to take a leak. god forbid there is a change then they have to go back and revise their BBQ schedule. like you i laugh all the way up to the stage to collect the check but i wish i didnt have to sit and pick parsley instead of drinking my vodka. well i got to go i have to go check out what evryone is crying about in the "should we let LP cookers into the kcbs events" section
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