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Q-talk *ON TOPIC ONLY* QUALITY ON TOPIC discussion of Backyard BBQ, grilling, Equipment and just outdoor cookin' in general, hints, tips, tricks & techniques, success, failures... but stay on topic. And watch for that hijacking.


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Unread 09-03-2009, 12:04 AM   #46
barbefunkoramaque
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bentley View Post
“Musky” flavor, others will say that it is just a more intense flavor, Huza, have it your way this is America Damit! Personally if I want that I will pick up some 3 day old roadkill as I come home from work. I believe your Dry aging is more susceptible to your meat picking up more “off” flavors as well. This is where it become a pure matter of personal preference. I like mine wet aged, I believe the good literally outweighs the bad, pun intended!
Why you chose to ignore the fact that my Prime Rib was only aged maybe 4 days I will never know. You could have killed me on this. I don't have the pockets or courage to age a hunk o meat longer than a few days.
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Unread 09-03-2009, 12:12 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barbefunkoramaque View Post
Here is my response.

no really bently I see your point but you are making more of point that you prefer it personally and I am just saying they are not the same thing. If they were... you and I would like each equally.
I guess I am asking you to tell me why? You either agree with the formula or you dont! 2 + 2 is not 5.

Quote:
Originally Posted by barbefunkoramaque View Post
Why you chose to ignore the fact that my Prime Rib was only aged maybe 4 days I will never know. You could have killed me on this. I don't have the pockets or courage to age a hunk o meat longer than a few days.
Never seen the video.
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Unread 09-03-2009, 07:39 AM   #48
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Funk,

First, HAPPY BIRTHDAY!

Second, I agree pretty much about restaurants, and it is a very rare occasion that I will order a steak while out. I prefer to go with things that I don't make myself. I can take disappointment in the taste, and I can take a hit to the wallet, but I just can't take the two of them together.

Lastly, I agree that there is a difference between dry and wet aging, but both of them are beneficial, and let's face it, wet aging is easier.
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Unread 09-03-2009, 01:49 PM   #49
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dry aging (which you cannot use at competitions).

I have been looking at the rules and wondering why you think you could not? Maybe it is obvious and it is going over my head.
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Unread 09-03-2009, 02:05 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bentley View Post
I guess I am asking you to tell me why? You either agree with the formula or you dont! 2 + 2 is not 5.


Never seen the video.
IT SHOWS a substantial portion of the Sirloin being cut away to fresh meat.
This supports your claim of waste and also counters your claim they are the same.

Okay Cricket, sounds like you want to argue the point.

I have failed to offer much more info because others and even you have made the point already.


"As I see it, dry aging or wet aging is the reduction of moisture in the meat resulting in that enzymatic change and enhancement.
"

But as I looked closer... I see the problem you are having. Your first contention was "they are the same" with wetaging being less wasteful.

You are NOT losing the same amount of moisture in the meat with wetaging as dry aging. That's just science there. Not up for any type of dispute, Second, you say that they are the same.

If they are the same, why don't you prefer Musky, dried up meat to Wet Aged meat... you have made a case that Wet Aging is the SAME but your evidence says it is Superior.

You cannot logically have it both ways.

You get this?

Finally, you seem to equate Dry Aged beef (which also happens as the side of beef lays on a hook) with 3 day old roadkill, which it is not. This may be a joke but it tips off your prejudice.

Let's compare mine and your claims

Mine (or those that defined in the forum)

Dry Aging is an older practice
DA lowers the moisture in the meat and concentrates flavor
DA tenderizes
DA is superior mostly because it actually IS true aging
WA term came around about the time of the VAC Pack
I prefer DA
DA and WA are different

Your Claims

Wet Aging predates vac packs
DA is inferior because there is too much waste (from The DRIER OUTSIDE and from inedible parts needing to be cut off)
DA is the same as wet aging
DA gets a Musty Taste (that everyone mistakenly defines as "Concentrated" - I think this may be evidence you have had some bad meat)
You somehow believe that there is no correlation to an oxygen environment and reduced moisture to enzyme activity.


If you look closely our claims seem to be one of preference but you have done a brilliant job of showing counter to your suggestion they are the same, that they are not the same, while claiming they are according to your suggestion.

To recap, you cannot prefer something that is essentially the same.
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Unread 09-03-2009, 02:25 PM   #51
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cant remember the last time i ordered a steak out.

Awesome job, nice camera too.
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Unread 09-03-2009, 02:33 PM   #52
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Ok, now I REALLY do not want to have grilled cheese sandwiches and tomato soup for dinner.
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Unread 09-03-2009, 02:33 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bentley View Post
I have been looking at the rules and wondering why you think you could not? Maybe it is obvious and it is going over my head.

you have a point. I think someone talked about this before. Isn't the rule "prepped" meat. Of course, if someone arrived with a dry aged Brisket I am sure they would lose, that's nasty!

Wet age is perfect for briskets and competition.

You do know I was speaking of dry aged in regards to premium meats.
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Unread 09-03-2009, 02:56 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barbefunkoramaque View Post
"As I see it, dry aging or wet aging is the reduction of moisture in the meat resulting in that enzymatic change and enhancement."

You are NOT losing the same amount of moisture in the meat with wetaging as dry aging. That's just science there. Not up for any type of dispute, Second, you say that they are the same.

This is my contention with you.

I am not losing the same amount of moisture because I wet age? Why, because you say so? What science, I have yet for you to tell me WHY your wet aged beef loses more moisture? You start out with two pieces of meat the same size, and yours is less weight because of the waste? Am I to believe that this explaines why your wet aged product has less moisture and concentrated the flavors more? You will have to do better than that Mr. Wizard!

I do enjoy the discourse though!
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Unread 09-03-2009, 06:53 PM   #55
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I cannot believe your asking the question. But I think you're really hung up on the rotten moldy pieces I am not a fan of either. Now I see where you are confused because I indeed have not said why the reduction of moisture is more in a dry aged chunk of premium beef than wet aged.

Maybe my assumptions are wrong. That my concept of wet aging beef is the same as yours. Mine includes letting the meat sit in the fridge in the vac sealed pouch and letting the enzymes do their work (albeit slower) over a period not to exceed 30 or more days, right?


Lets look at a good resource

http://www.goodcooking.com/steak/aging/aging.htm

I will summerize and include these quotes

Facts: Meat Science
Aging of Beef

By F.C.Parrish, Jr., Ph.D.
Department of Animal Science
Iowa State University
Ames, Iowa


I have taken the liberty of pasting some sections for our debate.


"Wet aging is the aging of meat in vacuum bags (usually the middle meats) under refrigerated conditions of 32-34° F. Obviously, humidity and air velocity are not necessary requirements for proper wet aging. Because most beef is vacuum packaged at the site of carcass fabrication (cutting), wet aging is the predominant method of postmortem aging today."

"Dry aging is the traditional process of placing an entire carcass or wholesale cut (without covering or packaging) in a refrigerated room for 21 to 28 days at 32-34 degrees F. and 100-85% relative humidity, with an air velocity of 0.5 to 2.5 m/sec. All three conditions, although varying widely in commercial practice, are extremely important in the proper postmortem aging of carcasses, as well as beef ribs and loins."

There is a third method that uses ultraviolet light to thwart bad bacteria as well.

They conclude:

"Dry and wet aging both result in a similar degree of palatability of rib and loin steaks; however, there can be distinct flavor differences. Meat from vacuum-aged cuts has a more bloody/serumy and metallic flavor, whereas, meat from dry-aging has a more brown-roasted beefy flavor."

I conclude that since a reputable resource has been able to confirm what our Brethren panel has experienced (that dry aged beef is a more concentrated beefy flavor) and that most of the most notable steak houses use the DA process, you my friend, no doubt, have had some BAD dry aged beef that did indeed taste "musty." Either that, or your taste buds are FARKED!!! and I KNOW that cannot be the case.

Did you notice the conclusion that most of the tenderizing process occurs within 7 - 10 days of death!!!!????? Thats a reality bomb. I did not know that until now..... Now furthermore, I and another brethren concentrated (pun sort of intended) on taste, which is mostly from the reduction of moisture Inside the meat.

With that caveat! I say, according to the definition provided herein, by the U of Iowa, that WET aging is within the Vac Pack.... well then the answer to your query is elementary....

In a sealed vaccum pack, no moisture is CAPABLE of being removed from the cut. Where can it go. And as a person who often buys 40 - 50 briskets at a time and refrigerates them for a month or more, I never see a collection of liquid any less or more than it was when I put it in there.

Aging is supposed to affect texture and flavor. Now according to this research the attributes assigned to wet aging are negative (bloody and metallic) and attributes assigned to dry aging are positive (Brown Raosted Beefy flavor). So, they aggree that the flavor profiles of dry aged beef are superior. I win.

However, aging also affects texture and basically most of that gets done IN THE VAC PACK before we get it, unless its from a butcher, in which case it may be dry aged as well... either way, both texture profiles are simular I think they conclude. You win or it could be a draw.

However, since aging does BOTH, a claim that wet aging would be superior is dubios because no credible flavor profile evidence is presented to run contrary to this. So, a claim that dry aging is superior is upheld because is does BOTH while wet aging does only one of the jobs.

I win.

Redirect?
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Unread 09-03-2009, 06:56 PM   #56
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One last thing...

"Air velocity is essential because it acts as a medium for moisture removal from the refrigerated area. Insufficient air velocity will allow excessive moisture to condense on the product, and as a result, off-flavors and aromas, as well as spoilage, will occur. Too high an air velocity, on the other hand, will result in excessive surface drying, with resulting weight and trim losses. The main disadvantage of dry aging is the cost associated with these weight and trim losses."

This means that there is such a thing as drying to much causeing too much moisture loss and trim loss.

It is less cost efficent. But I never made that claim.
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Unread 09-03-2009, 07:03 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bentley View Post
This is my contention with you.

I am not losing the same amount of moisture because I wet age? Why, because you say so? What science, I have yet for you to tell me WHY your wet aged beef loses more moisture?

I do enjoy the discourse though!
AS do I.

I am not aware that I made a claim there was more moisture loss from wet aging. You lose less moisture.... actually NONE because the package is sealed. I never offered an explanation because I thought that you understood this because as I saw it the major precept you were pushing was that DA was wasteful because of actual moisture loss AND trimming (due to the over drying of those actual outside leathery pieces).

If you have not misprinted this question accidentally than I accuse you sir of contemptuous use of disambiguation. A dastardly application of the strawman fallacy. You sir then, are a scoundrel of the worst kind and I ad that the last refuge of a scoundrel is always behind a block of wet aged shoulder clods!

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Unread 09-03-2009, 07:14 PM   #58
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Man, I'am farking confused.
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Unread 09-03-2009, 07:23 PM   #59
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yeah but ONLY on this forum can you have this kind of discourse.
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Unread 09-03-2009, 07:26 PM   #60
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Nice steaks!

Ruth's Chris is absolutely the most disappointing place I have ever eaten a steak, and I have had a few there. Not worth the money they want for them, that is for sure.
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