KCBS Next Steps/Goals/Focus ?!?!?!?

It won't let me edit above, but I had one more thought.

Last year we drove almost 9 hours each way to support a first year in-state contest. That contest had 19 teams. 14 of which had cooked a KCBS event before and 5 local teams. Those 14 teams finished 1-14 and guess what happened to the contest this year? It is gone. Most KCBS cooks are good cooks. Most are not professionals.

Is there a way to enhance the KCBS in a way that is not detrimental to the truly professional teams, but that by design helps grow participation among local teams? I am not sure of the best way to do this, but I think it can be done.

Over the last 2 years we have lost 5 in-state contests and gained 1. One of the ones we lost was a $20k purse with Brad being the back to back defending champion. I don't want to speak for him, but surely he would prefer that contest was still around. I am not advocating for anything that hurts the top-tier teams, simply hoping that some new ideas/direction can have a positive impact.
 
pharp said:
I would like to compete in a contest against teams that like to cook with a similar frequency as me.
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Why?

So you want a field with similar frequency, the next person wants fields with similar amount of wins..... where does it end?


How about cooking against the fields you GET? And if it happens to be a field full of teams that cook over 30 a year, who cares? Why don't you want to cook against the best?


I drove 11 hours in July to a contest in Missouri with a $7000 purse knowing full well that it was very likely I would be burning a bunch of money. But I wanted to go cook in Missouri this year and a field with those teams. I didn't get the finish I hoped for. But I was there. You don't get better if you don't cook and you don't really know where you stack up of you don't go cook at comps where the heavy hitters are.
 
tduffy said:
Why?

So you want a field with similar frequency, the next person wants fields with similar amount of wins..... where does it end?


How about cooking against the fields you GET? And if it happens to be a field full of teams that cook over 30 a year, who cares? Why don't you want to cook against the best?
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I had no problem doing it. I was simply responding to a question as to why new teams may not continue. We all get that you think it is a bad idea to have another division. I am sure my opinion on the matter is wrong. However, I just didn't have the desire to continue to do 8-10 contests (as I have stated I did not want to do more and 100% realize how much work the top teams put in and how good they are) a year when those 8-10 contests were populated multiple professional teams. I do not want to compete against the professional "best" because I am not a professional or best. If there were a division for teams that have cooked more than 12 contests in their lifetime but compete but cook fewer than 20 a year I would still be competing. There will be a NBBQL event in October, I am sure all of these teams that only compete to "Beat the Best" will make the trip.
 
tduffy said:
I drove 11 hours in July to a contest in Missouri with a $7000 purse knowing full well that it was very likely I would be burning a bunch of money.
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That's fine, but that is not the norm or desire for 98% of people. This thread isn't about "who wants to stick it out the longest, drive the farthest, and spend the most money before they are competitive with the best." That is literally the reason why participation is low. This thread is about getting people to events and I can guarantee you not everybody has $15-20k a year laying around (or the time, for that matter) to become really competitive in KCBS. Those 2% aren't going to keep the circuit alive, but for no reason should the level of competition that you have earned be dumbed down to make it more accessible to newer teams. That's where levels come in.

pharp said:
I had no problem doing it. I was simply responding to a question as to why new teams may not continue. We all get that you think it is a bad idea to have another division. I am sure my opinion on the matter is wrong. However, I just didn't have the desire to continue to do 8-10 contests (as I have stated I did not want to do more and 100% realize how much work the top teams put in and how good they are) a year when those 8-10 contests were populated multiple professional teams. I do not want to compete against the professional "best" because I am not a professional or best. If there were a division for teams that have cooked more than 12 contests in their lifetime but compete but cook fewer than 20 a year I would still be competing. There will be a NBBQL event in October, I am sure all of these teams that only compete to "Beat the Best" will make the trip.
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Here is where I agree with Pharp. The commitment to compete at the Pro Level is insane and having different levels of comps would be a good thing. I'd compete WAY more if there were more local smaller comps where I knew going in I wasn't going to burn up $1000 and a weekend away from my family (two very young kids). Then when I felt I was ready I'd compete more in KCBS. There is no reason why KCBS can't benefit from hosting the Pros and the newbies. As I stated in my previous post; there are barely any backyard events near me.

I think KCBS truly needs to sell more. Their facebook is active, but where are they on instagram with everybody else who cooks BBQ? One of the most fun comps we've done was a little one at a firehouse close to me that I found on the KCBS site (mainly because the organizer used to compete.) Why can't they offer to sponsor something like that? Make it for charity. Every single firehouse in America has a yearly event for fundraising. Why not add in a BBQ comp? No need to send reps out, just have a local competitor help with organizing and let the public judge. KCBS gets a cut and the rest goes to the hosting organization. Just a thought...
 
tduffy said:
I drove 11 hours in July to a contest in Missouri with a $7000 purse knowing full well that it was very likely I would be burning a bunch of money. But I wanted to go cook in Missouri this year and a field with those teams. I didn't get the finish I hoped for. But I was there. You don't get better if you don't cook and you don't really know where you stack up of you don't go cook at comps where the heavy hitters are.
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That field you got to compete against in Missouri is the field I would see at every contest. You want to beat the best, great. I know exactly where I stack up against the heavy hitters, the bottom.
 
There is already another division. There is backyard and competitor series events. So why would we need anymore divisions?
 
tduffy said:
There is already another division. There is backyard and competitor series events. So why would we need anymore divisions?
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I have said this like 3 times. The backyard division is basically non-existent because 99% of the current KCBS teams are excluded from competing in it.
 
pharp said:
I have said this like 3 times. The backyard division is basically non-existent because 99% of the current KCBS teams are excluded from competing in it.
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So sanction them as competitors series then.
 
Anyone planning on going to meet the new CEO at the Royal next Thursday? Got this in my email yesterday. Seems like it would be a good time to ask some of the questions that have been brought up in this thread so far.

Greetings! I am honored and excited to serve as your new Chief Executive Officer of the Kansas City Barbeque Society. I appreciate everything that all of our Members do to make KCBS the leading barbeque and grilling organization in the world. I'm humbled to carry on an amazing legacy and welcome your thoughts and ideas to build a strong KCBS for the future.



I look forward to meeting you during the American Royal. Our barbeque friends and fellow KCBS members Jeff Stehney and Sterling Ball are co-hosting a Meet & Greet for KCBS members to meet me during the American Royal World Series of Barbecue(R).

Please join us at the Kansas Speedway:


Thursday, September 12th from 5pm – 7pm

Slaughterhouse Five space number 519



Light bites will be available.
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Not true

GrillBillie_D said:
Here are some thoughts. First, many consider some of the top teams in KCBS as pros because of their success and that is fair. I'd even go so far as to say that any Master Series event is at least semi-pro level, even though a majority of the cook teams do it as a hobby. How many of the judges are professional or semi-pro judges? None! They are all volunteer judges. I'm not bashing judges. They do their job as it is presented to them but KCBS has created this system. As a cook, we have rules and regulations that must be followed, even though most are almost impossible to enforce. Nonetheless, we have rules. If we turn in the wrong garnish or a foreign object, we get disqualified. If we don't turn in enough pieces, we are marked down. Judges don't have rules. They have some guidelines but if they don't follow those guidelines, there is no consequence to them. The Reps are there to make sure cooks follow the rules but they don't have a way to ensure judges follow guidelines.

How can you consider this a professional competition when you have volunteer judges, with no accountability, who determine the outcome? Some have compared competition BBQ to other sports, like racing or poker. The difference is that those sports have some sort of professional or semi-pro people who oversee the sport. You don't go to a race and they ask for a volunteer out of the stands to be in charge of lining up the cars and being flagman. They have people who are trained to do the job and if they don't do it properly, they get fired. That is not the case in BBQ. To be a judge and determine the outcome of an event, you only need to pay your dues. If you apply your own criteria to the judging process, there is no accountability. Maybe some get flagged from individual events but if they pay their dues, they can sign up to judge any other event they wish.

Until KCBS is ready to address a standard for judging, it will continue to have the outcome determined by volunteers who have no accountability. I don't call that professional.
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Unfortunately, I believe you are incorrect on many levels. For one thing, if a judges scores are out of whack by more than a couple of points, that judge is called out by the rep. and has to explain why he/she scored the way they did. This happens at each and every table after each and every category at each and every contest so get over it. Another point is that there are many more Master judges now and those judges have, in many cases, years of experience and most definitely know good BBQ more than many individual head cooks or teams will ever know. Judges scores are tracked now and a judge has the ability to see how they scored compared to other judges. Most experienced judges are always within a point of the averages.

To flat out say judges have no accountability is just flat out wrong. As usual, the best cooks and teams always rise to the top. Top teams rise to the top regardless of judging in the long run. True for KCBS, SCA, IBCA etc..

Can the judging process and training be improved? Sure. But, I don’t hear much from top teams complaining about judging.
 
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GrillBillie_D said:
I'd start with properly trained judges.
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California GrillBillie complaining about judging when past competition results were far less than spectacular. I can understand the frustration of not placing very high but to say judges are not professional is a slap to the face of the many judges who take their job very seriously. I wouldn't even consider cooking a contest without taking a judging class and judging several contests to see what is going on. So, slapping back:

Let's have a look at this summer's KCBS contest past results:

June 22, 2019 Silicon Valley BBQ Championship
34 out of 46

August 17th, 2019 Lassen BBQ
15 out of 25

Averaging in the 67th percentile...
 
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LongTong said:
California GrillBillie complaining about judging when past competition results were far less than spectacular. I can understand the frustration of not placing very high but to say judges are not professional is a slap to the face of the many judges who take their job very seriously. I wouldn't even consider cooking a contest without taking a judging class and judging several contests to see what is going on. So, slapping back:

Let's have a look at this summer's KCBS contest past results:

June 22, 2019 Silicon Valley BBQ Championship
34 out of 46

August 17th, 2019 Lassen BBQ
15 out of 25

Averaging in the 67th percentile...
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Slow down my friend......this year I have been out there to vend food and make money and I did at both. Ask people what I did in Santa Clara...I started all of my comp trimming/prep at 5AM on Saturday....with a Cash & Carry brisket. I have SRF golds in my freezer but I left them at home. I sacrificed the competition to sell food to the public....and I'll do it again. Did you forget my 8th place outta 34 in North Bend? That is top 25 percentile but I guess that doesn't fit in with your argument. I think I made the most money at that event vending while not trying very hard on the comp side. Before this year, I have roughly 30 KCBS events under my belt with 3 RGCs, 6 top fives and 16 top 10 finishes. I'm okay with that. I am a judge (since 2013) and have judged in this area. I'm not saying judges don't put in their best effort and I don't have anything bad to say about most judges. They are just not professional judges. You have no standards to be held accountable to. You can give any entry any score you want and there is nothing anybody can do about it. Sure, you may get asked about it but you can't change the score. My very first KCBS contest was a Sams Club event. In ribs, there was one judge who thought the meat was not cooked all the way. They told the Reps they would not take a bite of it. It was 6 bones from one single rack of ribs. They could not force them to even take a bite of it and they ended up giving it 2s for taste and tenderness. You see my point! It that typical? No but it happens. You call that professional judging?
 
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GrillBillie_D said:
Slow down my friend......this year I have been out there to vend food and make money and I did at both. Ask people what I did in Santa Clara...I started all of my comp trimming/prep at 5AM on Saturday....with a Cash & Carry brisket. I have SRF golds in my freezer but I left them at home. I sacrificed the competition to sell food to the public....and I'll do it again. Did you forget my 8th place outta 34 in North Bend? That is top 25 percentile but I guess that doesn't fit in with your argument. I think I made the most money at that event vending while not trying very hard on the comp side. Before this year, I have roughly 30 KCBS events under my belt with 3 RGCs, 6 top fives and 16 top 10 finishes. I'm okay with that. I am a judge (since 2013) and have judged in this area. I'm not saying judges don't put in their best effort and I don't have anything bad to say about most judges. They are just not professional judges. You have no standards to be held accountable to. You can give any entry any score you want and there is nothing anybody can do about it. Sure, you may get asked about it but you can't change the score. My very first KCBS contest was a Sams Club event. In ribs, there was one judge who thought the meat was not cooked all the way. They told the Reps they would not take a bite of it. It was 6 bones from one single rack of ribs. They could not force them to even take a bite of it and they ended up giving it 2s for taste and tenderness. You see my point! It that typical? No but it happens. You call that professional judging?
Click to expand...

Thank you for your contributions to the sport of BBQ and sorry to hear you had some negative experiences with judges but that is why the low score is dropped.

So what would be your criteria for a Professional Judge? Would KCBS Masters’ qualifications be enough for you? Somebody who has put in the time to judge 30+ contests, passed an exam, and cooked with a team not enough?
 
Don't want to speak for Dennis, but I believe he is also looking for Standards...

Dennis, didn't a well known pitmaster/cbj/promoter/organizer, who shall remain nameless..., once tell you a few years back that it was a "slippery slope" ?
 
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