Kinda pissed about new judges

Similar thing happened the last time we competed in Modesto. There was a judging class the day before and many of the judges were from the class. Scores that weekend were all over the place. Maybe things would have worked out the same with all seasoned judging, maybe not. But the point is that it seems to be unfair to some folks.

What were the alternatives? Did they have experienced judges that they were turning away?

Sometimes you have to play the hand that you are dealt. If the organizers didn't have other judges to fill the ranks then their options were limited.

On the other hand, if they withheld certain spots in order to have an incentive for people to take the judging class and used those reserved spots for brand new judges at the expense of more experienced people, that's a problem.

Eric

New judges tend to differentiate more - they're trying to reward the entries that really stood out in their minds, or fit the criteria they were taught in class. It makes for more varying scores, but a 9 is still a 9...

-ralph
/dev/bbq
CBJ #21235

Mista - I understand where you are coming from but I don't think it's fair to point fingers at the judges.

Someone's BBQ was good enough to get lots of 8's & 9's and were worthy of GC and were evaluated by the same pool of judges. If anything, blame the organizers for the inability to recruit enough experienced judges and still accept the # of teams they did for a big contest, or for holding a class immediately before the contest etc.

I think there are lots of contests like this especially in growing areas.. Northeast is somewhat like this as well. I could only guess how many inexperienced judges were judging the AR Open with 500 teams.

Don't stress it.. Hopefully you had fun and you nail another 10 ten in your first contest for 2009.

I recently attended an FBA judges seminar and also judged a competition (though it was a funcook) the following day. I don't know how your scoring system works but if you give anything below a six in FBA there has to be something really, really bad wrong...you even have to inform the head judge as to why you scored that low. I'm sure I'll take some heat on this but my stance is that no - rookie judges are probably not the best to judge a comp. of that stature. Given- you can get a low score from a veteran judge just as easy as a rookie but from a rookie standpoint I can tell you that unless a judge is experienced and has actually competed in a contest or tried to cook competition quality BBQ at home they have absolutely no idea the kind of time and preparation that goes into what's in those turn in boxes. Appearance is one thing but tenderness is something that is mastered by many hours of practice! I recently got a new smoker and started trying to cook the four different categories at home. I thought I was a pretty decent cook but my stuff is crap compared to the food I sampled judging my first event, which makes me appreciate a good or great entry even more now! just my 2 cents...

Bigmista said:

Do you think rookies should be allowed to cut their teeth in big contests with so much on the line when they really have no concept of what goes into creating competitions BBQ?

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I don't think its a bad thing to have rookie judges as long as the reps try to keep the same number of rookies at each table.

warfrat said:

I can tell you that unless a judge is experienced and has actually competed in a contest or tried to cook competition quality BBQ at home they have absolutely no idea the kind of time and preparation that goes into what's in those turn in boxes.

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Until a sanctioning body includes a new evaluation category of 'Amount of Effort' for judging, how much time and prep that goes into a teams food is irrelevant for the purposes of scoring.

Eric

I understand your pain Neil. Our Pork was off the charts......and we hit that wrong table and wound up 37th. Two judges at that table hit us hard while the other 4 loved it. It kept us out of the big money for sure. Oh well, that's the way this game goes....but I do feel your pain.

motoeric said:

Until a sanctioning body includes a new evaluation category of 'Amount of Effort' for judging, how much time and prep that goes into a teams food is irrelevant for the purposes of scoring.

Eric

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What I mean is that you can't just run out to the local grocery store get some meat throw it on the grill and turn out quality comp. BBQ. (at least I can't anyways) If that's the only type of BBQ a rookie judge has ever had, they don't really have a lot to compare to. I'm sure some teams have more elaborate prep and cooking efforts than others and I'm not saying that their "effort" is relevant to how good or bad the results are. Also, cooking on a time schedule where everything has to be turned in at certain times and look,taste and feel are at their best is different than a Sat.afternoon cook for a few buddies in the backyard and thus takes a little more effort in the "attention to detail" department. BTW- no offense intended to rookie judges (I'm one of them)

So "big" contests deserve "better" judging??????

First off lots of contests each year have a judging class on Thursday evening and those folks get to judge Saturday. That's how it usually works.

Second what 's the difference from a small 30 team contest and a "big" one that the big one should have different judges? Be thankful that they had some training and were not dragged in off the midway at the fair or some other scenario.

Last thing - how do you know the "new" judges gave out the 4's? Maybe it was a P.O.'d long time judge. You're making an assumption here and we all know what an assumption.

I can't believe I just defended judging. For the record more training is needed as is a compulsory 1 hour review before every contest. But nobody at the KCBS agrees with me so I guess I'm in the minority.

Bigmista said:

Yes I believe their should be more experienced judging at bigger contests. They don't send rookie refs to the Superbowl or the NBA Championship because there is too much at stake to leave a decision up to someon with no experience.

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Well, it is the system you signed up to compete under, and I'd love to hear your proposal for a fix...

Hey guys I think Mista needs a hug :biggrin:

Mista - you know I love ya, but I think you're off the mark here to try to compare the Superbowl or NBA champs to a 50 team BBQ contest which is not all that big when you look it at nationally. Until the day comes that judges are paid (which will never happen to any substantial degree for most contests), you have to live with the hand that was dealt. When a team signs up for a contest and pays the application a risk is taken unless a guarantee is made regarding the level of judging experience to be offered.

This issue should only be taken up with the organizers. It's not a KCBS issue as far as I can see and it's not the fault of the judges either.

OK.. now let's hug like Sled suggested. :icon_blush:

What makes a good judge? All people have taste buds, all people at least most can be told once what to look for and do it right. We are talking about judging bbq, not doing open heart surgery. I am not sure about this entire judge thing, there is no better or worse person for judging. Either food is good or it is not, or maybe its just ok. This weekend my food was terrible and I knew it going in, could I have blamed the judges no, I can only blame the teams that beat me for doing it that much better. Anyone is qualified or can be taught to judge, so whether its your first time judging or your 300th time judging, you are tasting food with a basic profile, some will stand out and some will not. Also like I believe it is subjective, so throw good bbq to the pack of wolves and hope your lucky table number hits and your flavors are what they are looking for. T

I feel for you Mista... but this does happen at a lot of contests in our area too... the judging class just before an event and those same 'newbies' judging. At Lake Placid and at Oinktoberfest (and hopefully everywhere else) I believe they try to put experienced judges WITH the new judges, and then table captains are trying to watch scores to see if everyone is in line with everyone else.

have a great off season!

As a new member, this really fascinates me. I have been competing in chili with CASI mostly, but some ICS. The judging runs the gamut from experienced to the barely sober who's only required to be over 18 and have a pulse. Ultimately, it does boil down to taste and consistency as well, and tough is tough and tender is tender. No?

Neil - Sorry to hear about that experience man. I can tell you that the more you cook, the more you will find judges that are all over the place. Certified or not, Seasoned or not...

I have been to contests with 100% certified judges, and no Thurs judging class, and still gotten tables I wondered about. And if you think yours was bad.... lets look at 4 Men and a Pig.... They got some bad judging and took just about DAL in the AR Invitational.... The next day, he won the open... judging varies. There just isnt anything we can do about it.

As far as the new judges -- they are typically trying to be very diligent, and follow the rules. Frankly, I worry about the more seasoned ones, that aren't open to new flavor profiles, etc. They have a "9" in thier mind before they get a bite... so instead of getting judged on the merits of the piece in the box, you can get judged against the best contest brisket they have tried. (not saying that is a bad thing.....but, playing a little devil's advocate.)

I know how you feel... At the $50,000 pine bluff contest, I got two calls, and 9th overall... and Pork was my worst catagory... At Hot Spring - the sister $50K contest (Both with alot of teams) I got my arse handed to me in everything but pork. (got a 1st in pork)... Am I happy -- no.... Did I lose a wink of sleep over it -- nope!!
Don't feel bad, it's peeps judging peeps...no perfect system. so just let it roll off and get ready for the next dance

I'd hug you, but Sled isn't really letting anyone else in line