Fairness In KCBS Judging

Tony, good luck with this. I don't want to rain on your passion here, but don't hold your breath with the KCBS Board. Comment cards were beta tested last year and met favorably by the judges, teams, organizers and the several of the reps that tested them. It was apparent that the membership wanted this type of program implemented. The Board ignored the membership and voted it down.

In my opinion KCBS is out for only one thing when it comes to CBJ's and that is increased membership. They push for classes to be held, and "graduate" scores of CBJ's with very little to no follow up or oversight of them. In fact they demand that the organizers of contests ensure they are truely CBJ's. To me this is like a lot of people that bring children into the world and expect society raise them.

The current system is not broken when it comes to judging, but it is by no means perfect either. Your ideas have merit and hopefully someday they will be looked at seriously and implemented. Until then Candied Thighs anyone?

I have a quick question that is sort of on the same topic. Does every catagory a cook turns in get judged by the same table? The same group of judges.

It does not.

No. As long as you have 24 teams your products should not end up on the same table.

I am a CBJ and the first time i judged a KCBS contest we were told not to give a lot of nines. They didn't want judges scoring to high. This affected my judgment a lot, especially in the taste category. The first piece was very good but i didn't score to high because if i give it a eight and the next five are better then what, they don't want nines and they can't be all eights.I think we need to taste all the entries and maybe even take another taste to be sure before we score them. I did judge one more time after that and still did not feel comfortable with my choices and i don't think i will judge again.

MrSmoker said:

I am a CBJ and the first time i judged a KCBS contest we were told not to give a lot of nines. They didn't want judges scoring to high. This affected my judgment a lot, especially in the taste category. The first piece was very good but i didn't score to high because if i give it a eight and the next five are better then what, they don't want nines and they can't be all eights.I think we need to taste all the entries and maybe even take another taste to be sure before we score them. I did judge one more time after that and still did not feel comfortable with my choices and i don't think i will judge again.

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Isn't this exactly what you are told not to do while judging is compare each entry to the next. I thought you where suppose to judge each entry on it's own. Therfor if you judge six ribs and each one is excellent than each one would get a nine no matter what the other one's where like. That is also bogus that they would tell you not to give out very many nine's and in my oppinion is complete crap.

OC PIG ASSASSINS said:

I like red, you like yellow. This becomes a lottery not a competition. What I think would be great is if everyone had to use the same meat, rub ingredients, and sauce ingredients and everything had to be made on sight. I love the people at competitions and the fun that is why we go, but there aren't true competitions, there are too many teams and judges. It is hard to say this teams is better than this teams when we had two different pallets eating our food and there are sixty teams. You make a great point, lets turn these into competitions not lotteries.

Entry fee should include
two racks
one brisket
one shoulder
dozen thighs

Basic rub ingredients, let teams mix and measure themselves.

Basic sauce ingedients and let the teams mix and measure themselves.

Limit the comps to 15 teams, this will show who can really BBQ.

If there are sixty teams that want to enter, make brackets and run four different comps at one sight.

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OC PIG ASSASSINS said:

Is that much to much to ask, to cook?

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I do not think that is too much to ask to cook. But I feel it creates and even more unfair situation than the one currently in place.

The first problem I see is with the meat
1. Not all meat is created equal. So even though the cut of meat comes from the same packer and case there will still be inferior pieces. The pork butt may have a huge gash in it. The brisket may may be super thick on one end and paper thin on the other.
2.Certain pieces are just better than others. I may mean more marbling or fat and when I got to the store to select my meat it is up to me to get the best cut it is not up to the contest organizer to pick the meat.
3.People also have personal preference on what cuts that buy and what brand they use. For example I like to cook baby back ribs with the methods I use I find I get better results. Not that there is any thing wrong with other choices it is just what I like to do. When the contest organizer hands out meat people are deprived from choosing what results in the best product for their methods.
4.Also I am not sure if you are familiar with competitions but many team cook greater amounts of what is listed so they can select the best product.

Next is with the sauce and rub ingredients
1. Many people have a wide array of items they put in there rub and sauce when only given a limited selection they may not have the ingredients needed to produce the best product.
2.What do you do about injections and marinades there is a wide array of things that fall into this category.
3.With a limited selection of ingredients teams cannot shine to there full potential.
This is a bbq comp not iron chef

Last the brackets
1. KCBS has does not do comparative judging therefor who ever had the best score wins.
2. Also how do you divide the brackets that it is fair? Would it be fair if in one bracket there are a bunch of big name teams and in another there a bunch of no names.

If comps were run like the way you suggested I know I would not participate,

Chris

These are just questions for me, I don't compete. Does a judge have any annual or bi-annual classes or test they need to do? Is it where they get certified in say 1990 and try to remember all the rules today? Can they take 5 years off then come back like nothing happened? I work in the medical field and we have continuing education we have to do every year.

radmanct said:

These are just questions for me, I don't compete. Does a judge have any annual or bi-annual classes or test they need to do? Is it where they get certified in say 1990 and try to remember all the rules today? Can they take 5 years off then come back like nothing happened? I work in the medical field and we have continuing education we have to do every year.

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As long as they keep their KCBS Membership up to date, they are CBJ's. No further training is needed or even offered. Althought they can "audit" any CBJ class they want.

thunter said:

Well, I am passionate but not crazy... therefore, I will not be turning in chicken feet! :lol: .

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Add what is wrong with chicken feet? :mrgreen:




I like what you have proposed for changes so far.
I would say as far as garnish, get rid of it. There is no need for it so if all teams didn't use garnish then it should even out the playing field as far as appearance goes.
Taste and Tenderness will always be a subjective issue anyway you put it. IMO. I started cooking what the judges wanted and started doing better. I'm not saying its right, but if you want to win you better be willing to make adjustments.
I guess I see it as, either you change or they change and you can do something about one of those.

Your article brings up some very good points, and things that I feel I have experienced as a competitor. I am judging my first comp in a month and I am very much looking forward to seeing how things happen in the tent. I have taken the judging class and I learned a few things, but thought it could have been better. There will, and always should be, some subjectivity to the scores but I am really looking forward to my experience inside the inner sanctum in July!

I call BS

ZBQ said:

One thing that I have always thought is that there should be a requirement that to become a judge, you have to have cooked at least one comp, maybe more.

It's a pet peeve of mine when I hear judges talking about things after the entries are scored and cards turned in and you know right away that they have never cooked a comp because they have no idea just how much money, hard work and time goes into getting that box in front of them.

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I don't buy the argument that being a competition cook produces a better judge. Don't insult me. I've been cooking backyard barbecue for years, and only last autumn became a CBJ. While I learn something each time I judge, I defy anyone to challenge my ability to determine what constitutes an entry done well.

Competitors choose to compete. I marvel at the talent and experience necessary to produce four quality entries on time; I'm not sure I could do it. I also appreciate the hours and money spent to compete. However, when I judge, I consider nothing but the quality of the piece before me.

A couple times, earlier this season, I've heard contest reps implore us judges to consider the less-than-desirable weather conditions cooks have had to endure, and to score perhaps more generously than normal. Baloney! Every team at these comps dealt with the weather. In the end, the best that day won. Their entries may or may not have been as good as the week before or after, but do not expect me to grade on a curve...this ain't elementary school. Furthermore, please note that the harshest weather I witnessed this season was at the Capital City Cook-off in Jeff City. Ironically, it was at this very competition that I sampled more top-notch entries than any other contest I've judged in '08. In my mind, scoring artificially higher would have been an insult to everyone who endured the cold winds.

When I judge, I consider only what the anonymous team has put before me,
not my preference for dry rub over sauce,
nor my disdain for parsley that I invariably must pick off before sampling,
nor my boredom with sugary-sweet sauces.
I judge not the teams' choices, rather whether they were successful in implementing those choices.

Anyone want to try to convince me that being a competition cook would make me a better judge? Invite me to join your team for a weekend, maybe I'll change my mind.

Chris,

I understand your point and idea. The whole goal of my idea would be getting the judges away from personal taste. If everyone had the same ingredients for the basics it would come down to who can BBQ. I understand your thought on the meat process, but if you get a good purveyor to come in, you will limit these problems. The problem I see in competition is that when fifty teams turn in pork for example, there are fifty different items being judged, that usually taste nothing alike. If everyone has the same base ingredients, it would become an all around BBQ comp that involves cooking. I go to a lot and compete in some comps and everyone makes great food. I had what I consider horrible brisket that I made at my last comp, and my neighboring teams was perfect, I got 15th place and he got 34th place. Only because they probably liked my sauce better.

As far as the teams go, it would be picked out of a hat, it wouldn't matter if all the good teams were in the same bracket or not, you end up against them anyway as it goes now. You have know control at this point who enters the comp. I also believe anyone who enters is a good team with a good chance.

I will stop babbling and get to my point. If everyone is cooking with the same ingredients, it would be a better comp, because it would come down to who can actually cook.

Remember my opinion is like an a$$ hole, everyone has one! LOL

MrSmoker said:

I am a CBJ and the first time i judged a KCBS contest we were told not to give a lot of nines. They didn't want judges scoring to high. This affected my judgment a lot, especially in the taste category. The first piece was very good but i didn't score to high because if i give it a eight and the next five are better then what, they don't want nines and they can't be all eights.I think we need to taste all the entries and maybe even take another taste to be sure before we score them. I did judge one more time after that and still did not feel comfortable with my choices and i don't think i will judge again.

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I would love to know who the Contest Rep was. You are supposed to call it as YOU see it. If you feel it's a 9 you should circle 9 on your card. I think the instruction you got from that Rep was very wrong and should be corrected immediately.

thunter said:

Well, I am passionate but not crazy... therefore, I will not be turning in chicken feet! :lol: I think the point is that the cooks should have some latitude for meat selection (within reason of course), and their selection/entry should be judged for what it is rather than what the judges are accustomed to seeing. To me, this enhances the spirit and atmosphere of competition.

As for what will fit in the box, the KCBS rules are clear that there must be at least six (6) separately identifiable pieces of meat. Now, chicken wholes or halves just don't seem reasonable for obvious reasons; however, if I decided to turn in all breasts or, all wings or, all legs, why should they be scored down because they are not thighs or what the judges are used to seeing? In fact, the rules state that Cornish Hens are legal, but cooks don't turn them in because the judges will score the entry down because of what it is not - thighs! That is just plain wrong and it stifles the atmosphere of competition. what if someone makes a Cornish hen that absolutely rocks? Well, because the judges want to see thighs, it is instantly out of the running! That again is just plain wrong!

As a cook, my job is to make great BBQ for the judges to sample. As a judge, my job is to fairly judge the legal entry that is put in front of me without bias and to do otherwise is a disservice to the cooking teams and the spirit of competition.

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In the comps I have judged we have had legs, thighs, breasts and leg quarters turned in that I remember for sure. I haven't heard anyone say anything about judging down because it's not a thigh. In fact I have heard just the opposite. People commenting on their desire to see more than just thighs.

I think that as far as the garnish issue goes, if you use garnish in your box then you should expect the garnish to be an issue in the judging. If it makes your box stand out then it's to your advantage and if it detracts from your box or covers your meat up then obviously it's to your disadvantage. That's why making practice boxes is so important to me. Make lots of boxes and get lots of feedback and the garnish will work for you instead of against you.

Personally, I joined the KCBS knowing the rules of the game and I am not unhappy with the judging experience either from my cooks standpoint or from my Judging standpoint. I would take exception however if I had a rep or table captain that told me not to give too many 9's as I feel that it is up to each judge to decide what is the correct score for a sample. I would report that behavior to the KCBS quickly.

StLouQue said:

I don't buy the argument that being a competition cook produces a better judge. Don't insult me. I've been cooking backyard barbecue for years, and only last autumn became a CBJ. While I learn something each time I judge, I defy anyone to challenge my ability to determine what constitutes an entry done well.

Competitors choose to compete. I marvel at the talent and experience necessary to produce four quality entries on time; I'm not sure I could do it. I also appreciate the hours and money spent to compete. .

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I didn't say, and didn't mean, that it would make a better judge.

All I meant was that they would at least understand the processes
that go on to get the entry in front of them.

I heard a CBJ once laugh and say, "How hard can it be to cook chicken and
throw it in a box?" in response to a team getting DQ'd because they missed turn in time by
seconds.

He also said, "I'll take Damons over this stuff any day, but hey, it's free eats!"

I can see that you at least understand and appreciate the process and
are serious about how you judge. There are CBJ's that can't say that.

OC PIG ASSASSINS said:

If everyone had the same ingredients for the basics it would come down to who can BBQ.

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Not true - how much rub you use makes a big difference, so does trimming and exposign surfaces.

And I agree with the point that all meat is not created equal. Take a case of butts and each cryovac is cut different and with different size butts. So it will also cook differently.

thunter said:

Judges primarily look for one thing (at the moment) and that is chicken thighs.

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Not true -and I spent the 2005 season cooking boneless, skin on breasts. I nailed them one contest for a call but otherwise they just were not as good as thighs. Bottom line is thighs stay moister longer. My test of chicken is leave one piece out and don't touch it until 12:15 and see how it held up. White meat, especially cut usually fails the test. That's why it's scored down and not because a judge wants to see a thigh.

Ford said:

Time out. First the contest is put on by the organizer not the KCBS. The KCBS has no control over who judges. An organizer can use zero CBJ's if they want.

So my question to you is how do your verify that a CBJ has cooked a contest? Do they have to be the head cook or like for MCBJ just work with a team. I have a number of good friends that mainly judge and some have cooekd with me but I don't think that really makes them appreciate just how much a cook puts into a contest.

Bottom line is you pay your money and take your chances.

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I totally understand that the organizer is the one who controls who the judges are, not the KCBS.

I just meant to earn the title of CBJ there should be more requirements.

To weed out the "Free Food" crowd and such......

A thought that I had was that the class of prospective judges would have to be there and watch or participate in the prepping and cooking of the meat that is being cooked for the class to evaluate. I realize this is more "labor intensive" and might not be completely feasable but at least they could then understand and appreciate the processes involved and not think that Q is just slapped on a plate and served in 10 minutes.

ZBQ said:

I didn't say, and didn't mean, that it would make a better judge.

All I meant was that they would at least understand the processes
that go on to get the entry in front of them.

I heard a CBJ once laugh and say, "How hard can it be to cook chicken and
throw it in a box?" in response to a team getting DQ'd because they missed turn in time by
seconds.

He also said, "I'll take Damons over this stuff any day, but hey, it's free eats!"

I can see that you at least understand and appreciate the process and
are serious about how you judge. There are CBJ's that can't say that.

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The example you cite is unfortunate. Given this explanation, your previous remarks are more understandable.

I hope you understand that my initial was response was not intended as a personal challenge. I've been a member of this and other bbq forums for several years, and can't tell you how many times I've read ...judges should have to compete because... That is the argument I take exception to. Give it up folks – it'll never happen.

I can let this point rest knowing that you and I better understand each other.

As to Tony's original points: He has a worthwhile position. In my opinion, however, I agree with the posts that maintain it is the mindset of some judges that needs adjustment, not the scoring system. Personally, I'm there to judge, not eat for free. That is why you will never see me bring a cooler; but that's a whole 'nother can of worms...