KCBS Next Steps/Goals/Focus ?!?!?!?

egorham said:

You have mentioned this a few times and I would be interested in hearing how you would propose it work. In your system would the American Royal invitational and The Jack no longer be considered "world championships" and would their be a path to getting there similar to how the US Open works in golf? The reason I ask about these two are that I really don't care about KCBS points but I do want to compete in The Royal and The Jack at some point. I think many others are in the same position I am in.

For me the reasons I compete are:
1) Because I enjoy it and I want to compete against the best (at least the best in California).
2) To (hopefully) be able to cook The Jack and The American Royal.
3) California BBQ Association Team of the Year. We only count the top 5 scores rather than top 10 . I always assume you have to, at a minimum, do 2.5x the number events counted to realistically have a chance at Team of the Year and 12 events is more realistic form me than 25.

And you are correct, to do anything other than #1 I need to cook a lot more but I don't think I will be able to do that until my kids go to college.


I also want to say that you may be correct, this may be the best path forward for KCBS and/or professional BBQ. I think it is tough for people like me and others on this forum because we are the ones that get downsized out of the pro ranks and nobody has ever thought it was a great idea to downsize themselves out of anything.

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Sign me up to be downsized. I am never going to compete 50 times a year. I would love to compete 10 times a year against people who compete 5-15 times year. Unlike some, I would make no illusion to myself that if I were to win one of those events it would equal winning against the top teams.

gettinbasted said:

If you read my post, I'm advocating some mobility between divisions so this aspect of competition BBQ stays alive, because I think it's unique and important.

Touring teams will still cook local events. They do it now because they love to compete and to cook. That won't change. I cooked a 25 team contest in my home town 2 weeks ago. There weren't enough teams for the points to matter. I cooked it because it's my home town and I love to compete. The contest you won pork at was the same way. Teams will show up for well run, fun events regardless.

For the tour I'm talking about 16-20 (maybe it's only 10-12?) high profile events from coast to coast (and international). Most "pro" teams will only do about half of these. The rest of their schedule will be made up of smaller local events. That's no different than how we schedule now. Plus, these high profile events can be open meaning anyone who wants to pay the entry fee can sign up to cook two per year without losing your status.

The main difference between the current system and what I'm proposing is a two tiered championship points chase. Plus having 16-20 big, bankable events to drive interest, education and marketing opportunities for competition BBQ.

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I actually think an easy way start down this road would be at the "local contests" you have to elect if you want to be considered for the points chase (maybe teams with 20 or more contests the previous year are required to be considered for the points chase). Then you have a hybrid awards of sorts. A guy that competes only a handful of times could say "I beat the other guys that cook few times a year and got 4th overall." Keeps the concept of wanting to beat the best, doesn't put limits on teams like you.

This thread is interesting and reading it so far it's pretty obvious why KCBS can't make any real changes : people are set in their ways and they don't want any changes. The Pro teams out there already know how to win, so why would they want any changes which would hamper their odds and possibly tilt the scale in the favor of others? Quite a few posters in here came out "guns blazing" against just about any and all changes suggested.

Anyways, I didn't see it suggested in this thread, so I'll place it here as I feel like this could help to open things up for new teams :

A while back Harry Soo did a video where they were at an event and there were certified judges who would eat your food in front of you and give you instant feed back. For teams who are just starting out that could be a "game changer" for them. I've done 5 contests and the feedback from judges leaves a lot to be desired. I've gotten a few comment cards and for the most part they lack any real critique. It's tough to spend the kind of money a contest requires when you're doing something wrong, but you've got no real means of knowing what that wrong thing is.

I'm just curious if KCBS would think about incorporating these things into some contests to help lure in new teams and allow them to get some feedback before they drop a lot of money on entry fees. It would allow them to test the waters and see if KCBS BBQ is really something they want to compete in. I enjoy going to contests and competing mostly because of the people I've met. I feel if people can get out there and not have to drop so much money, they might get pulled into the community and have a much more positive experience.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ld1A_dPwsw8

Also, kind of a small note, but the KCBS website / Competition search tool is kind of hard to use and not very "information friendly" for newcomers. If you have no idea what's going on and you want to enter your 1st KCBS contest the website doesn't really help much. I see lots of things like "State Championship"...it doesn't really explain what that means and it makes it seem like that's a very prestigious contest which a newcomer might not even be able to attend. Seeing an event say "Master Series" would generally make me think that it's not open to anybody beyond the Pros. There is nothing detailing the difference between a Master Series and Competitor Series competition. Even looking at the FAQ section imagine if you were a newcomer...these don't answer any questions a newcomer would likely have.

I only bring this up because I had no clue what I was doing when I first decided to give competition BBQ a shot. I checked out the KCBS.US website and it has very little information which is easily accessible for newcomers. LOTS of discussion in this thread is about newcomers, and I still feel like I'm in that category.

SmoothBoarBBQ said:

A while back Harry Soo did a video where they were at an event and there were certified judges who would eat your food in front of you and give you instant feed back.

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This event (and these types) is a very fun and useful event for any and all teams. Not only do you get judged by certified judges but also experienced cooks teams. The cooks teams also serve as mentors. Last year, I cooked this event. I learned a lot about some things I was trying. This year, I served as judge and mentor. It felt really good to be able to walk around on Friday night and Saturday morning and talk to people cooking and answer questions and offer advice. It was also nice to ask questions of the cook and offer suggestions back. To me, the best part is when a team turns in something and you give them some honest feedback and later in the year, you hear that team get their name called. That is an awesome feeling. Friends helping friends.

Harry's events are an excellent teaching / learning venue for both team and judges !
I had the honor of being one of the judges for his first event back on December 14, 2013.

Would do one again in a heartbeat !!!

Mike in Roseville said:

Your position isn't wrong. It's just the complete antithesis of what BBQ is for me. Like I said before, exclusive vs. inclusive. How do you get more involvement? Maybe consider not telling people they have no business being there? But what do I know? Sounds like you guys have a good handle on this.

I'll leave it to you all then.:yo:

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Why do we have to turn KCBS Master Series BBQ into something it isn't to be more "inclusive" or get more involvement?



I just tell it like it is, competition BBQ has never been cheap so what I said was the truth whether people like it or not. Probably why alot of people go broke doing it. Fail to recognize the reality of what they are doing to their personal finances.

About 5 years ago I brought up to some KCBS board members that they needed to be proactive in continuing the growth of competition bbq. One of the things I had always heard from the public at comps or in conversation about doing comps was "I'd love to compete but have no idea how to start". The other big one was mentioned previously about not having a trailer to compete out of.

My idea to KCBS was putting together classes and/or videos showing how to start in competition bbq. Not a tell all class but more of what basic equipment is needed, what the time line of a contest looks like, how judging is done, etc. Maybe show what a set up looked like using just a 10x10 EZ Up. I had talked to a few top comp teams and they were more than willing to help do this. Their response was great idea but this really should be something you do on your own and is not something KCBS would involve itself in. I brought this up to boardmembers the following year (maybe two) and got more or less the same response.

I'm not saying this is the answer, but it is definitely frustrating seeing membership/competitions decline and the one group with the most to lose in this sit back and not try to be proactive about it.

tduffy said:

Why do we have to turn KCBS Master Series BBQ into something it isn't to be more "inclusive" or get more involvement?



I just tell it like it is, competition BBQ has never been cheap so what I said was the truth whether people like it or not. Probably why alot of people go broke doing it. Fail to recognize the reality of what they are doing to their personal finances.

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I generally agree with most of what you say. But I think that is the exact point you are missing. We don't have to turn Master Series events into something more inclusive. We have to create an option that is more inclusive for everyone else in order to grow.

jaestar said:

About 5 years ago I brought up to some KCBS board members that they needed to be proactive in continuing the growth of competition bbq. One of the things I had always heard from the public at comps or in conversation about doing comps was "I'd love to compete but have no idea how to start". The other big one was mentioned previously about not having a trailer to compete out of.

My idea to KCBS was putting together classes and/or videos showing how to start in competition bbq. Not a tell all class but more of what basic equipment is needed, what the time line of a contest looks like, how judging is done, etc. Maybe show what a set up looked like using just a 10x10 EZ Up. I had talked to a few top comp teams and they were more than willing to help do this. Their response was great idea but this really should be something you do on your own and is not something KCBS would involve itself in. I brought this up to boardmembers the following year (maybe two) and got more or less the same response.

I'm not saying this is the answer, but it is definitely frustrating seeing membership/competitions decline and the one group with the most to lose in this sit back and not try to be proactive about it.

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The information is out there, so maybe it's up to KCBS to market better. I think there is a stigma here that it is hard to get into competition BBQ and honestly I don't know why. It's literally as easy as exchanging american currency, doing maybe an hour of research, looking at pics of others food to try to emulate, reading the KCBS rules, and showing up with your smoker. Once you are there, it falls into place. I feel KCBS and the other teams are so supportive when you are there knowing you are new. Just have to dive in and be ok with losing/screwing up for a bit. Can't be stuck over analyzing and trying to win your first time out. You aren't going to and that's fine. You double your BBQ knowledge every time you compete.

We entered our first comp with almost new Pit Barrels and a Wal Mart Char Griller stick burner. We still compete under EZUps. You don't have to go broke to get into this. Just have to take the plunge. If you decide it isn't for you, at least you tried.

pharp said:

I generally agree with most of what you say. But I think that is the exact point you are missing. We don't have to turn Master Series events into something more inclusive. We have to create an option that is more inclusive for everyone else in order to grow.

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Well there was a backyard BBQ contest at the KCBS comp i cooked this weekend. I believe there was a whopping 5 teams in it. Where was everyone that is bitching about not having other options other that master series?

tduffy said:

Well there was a backyard BBQ contest at the KCBS comp i cooked this weekend. I believe there was a whopping 5 teams in it. Where was everyone that is bitching about not having other options other that master series?

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That’s the Point. Probably a lot teams ineligible to cook in backyard that didn’t do that the masters event.

doesn't everyone sort of understand that the explosion of BBQ and in particular of comp BBQ probably saw it's peak a few years back with Pitmasters, Pit Wars and BBQ Crawl all happening on the TV pretty much at the same time?

The chance of catching that lightning in a bottle again will be nearly impossible. so wherever the overall popularity of comp BBQ is now landing means it is pretty much what it is.

tduffy said:

Well there was a backyard BBQ contest at the KCBS comp i cooked this weekend. I believe there was a whopping 5 teams in it. Where was everyone that is bitching about not having other options other that master series?

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In my neck of the woods backyard events are few and in my instance travel expenses make it about equal cost so might as well compete on the pro level if we are going to compete.

I don't think you got to worry about anything changing. These type of threads pop up we complain a bit and it stays the same.
I would like to see entrance fees come down so smaller events stick around and grow but its not happening.
I am going to keep looking for team mates to try and spread the costs out and not worry about what it should be and accept it for what it is.

pharp said:

That’s the Point. Probably a lot teams ineligible to cook in backyard that didn’t do that the masters event.

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How would they be ineligible to cook?

tduffy said:

How would they be ineligible to cook?

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Using the one in Sioux City last year. My daughter wanted her and my wife to do it but since my wife has done the number of contests she has done my daughter, who has only helped us doing peoples choice contests like at Whiting the last year it was at the park there, anyways she was told they were not eligible because of number of contests my wife has done even though i was head cook and Tracys name is not even on my KCBS number.

tduffy said:

How would they be ineligible to cook?

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Once you cook X cooks, 12 or 15 or whatever...you are a "master competitor."

By that definition a team that has 13 cooks and team that has 1300 cooks will be competing at the same event.

Some people are looking for a chance to beat the best, good for them and some do. For me, I enjoy cooking and did decent considering the level of competition at the events I participated in...but I am not good enough or dedicated enough to consistently compete with the true pros. Not sure why having something between backyard and pro would be so controversial.

I think going back to some thoughts circulated earlier, a solid option would be to eliminate the general restrictions on the Backyard division, points chase teams were only eligible for the "master events" and hopefully most comps would have both (I am not sure there has been a backyard comp within 5 hours of me this year) and skew the prize pool toward the master's side (deservedly so).

Pedro7 said:

The information is out there, so maybe it's up to KCBS to market better. I think there is a stigma here that it is hard to get into competition BBQ and honestly I don't know why. It's literally as easy as exchanging american currency, doing maybe an hour of research, looking at pics of others food to try to emulate, reading the KCBS rules, and showing up with your smoker. Once you are there, it falls into place. I feel KCBS and the other teams are so supportive when you are there knowing you are new. Just have to dive in and be ok with losing/screwing up for a bit. Can't be stuck over analyzing and trying to win your first time out. You aren't going to and that's fine. You double your BBQ knowledge every time you compete.

We entered our first comp with almost new Pit Barrels and a Wal Mart Char Griller stick burner. We still compete under EZUps. You don't have to go broke to get into this. Just have to take the plunge. If you decide it isn't for you, at least you tried.

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I agree with your sentiment that once you get to a contest things do fall in place. The problem is that not everybody is willing to drop ~$1k without being fully prepared and understanding the entire series of events. Some contests are very open and everybody is outside chatting and talking, while others are very much the opposite : ghost town until about 3am and even then it's still very little people around.

My first KCBS contest was Kings of Q in Ayden, NC. I get put in a parking lot with 2 other teams and we're surrounded on 3 sides by buildings. We can't see anything or anybody else with the exception of the big-rig guys across the street. Those guys show up late, and sleep all night, and they are rarely seen until the morning. It was not a great experience because I had no idea what was going on, and the people who did know were almost completely isolated from us "noobs." Needless to say I got my ass kicked, but I wasn't looking to win : really I just didn't want to come in DAL and I accomplished that goal. haha

You are absolutely correct in that KCBS should market it better, and putting together a ~15 minute YouTube video explaining everything, and having it linked on their website, would certainly help with "pulling back the curtains."

tduffy said:

Well there was a backyard BBQ contest at the KCBS comp i cooked this weekend. I believe there was a whopping 5 teams in it. Where was everyone that is bitching about not having other options other that master series?

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I am 15 miles from NYC. When I was active competing between say 2011 and 2016 I did not see 1 backyard contest within 100-150+ miles. I am in a super highly populous area to say the least. Finding contests was enough of a chore and from what I hear it’s only gotten harder. Backyard never took off out here - kcbs should push that harder with its promoters

pharp said:

Some people are looking for a chance to beat the best, good for them and some do. For me, I enjoy cooking and did decent considering the level of competition at the events I participated in...but I am not good enough or dedicated enough to consistently compete with the true pros. Not sure why having something between backyard and pro would be so controversial.

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Agree. I'd assume that's what it is for most teams, including us.

eggzlot said:

I am 15 miles from NYC. When I was active competing between say 2011 and 2016 I did not see 1 backyard contest within 100-150+ miles. I am in a super highly populous area to say the least. Finding contests was enough of a chore and from what I hear it’s only gotten harder. Backyard never took off out here - kcbs should push that harder with its promoters

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100% here. I'm in North Jersey and would LOVE some more backyard or smaller competitions. Less entry fees, less commitment, and a chance to win.

SmoothBoarBBQ said:

I agree with your sentiment that once you get to a contest things do fall in place. The problem is that not everybody is willing to drop ~$1k without being fully prepared and understanding the entire series of events. Some contests are very open and everybody is outside chatting and talking, while others are very much the opposite : ghost town until about 3am and even then it's still very little people around.

My first KCBS contest was Kings of Q in Ayden, NC. I get put in a parking lot with 2 other teams and we're surrounded on 3 sides by buildings. We can't see anything or anybody else with the exception of the big-rig guys across the street. Those guys show up late, and sleep all night, and they are rarely seen until the morning. It was not a great experience because I had no idea what was going on, and the people who did know were almost completely isolated from us "noobs." Needless to say I got my ass kicked, but I wasn't looking to win : really I just didn't want to come in DAL and I accomplished that goal. haha

You are absolutely correct in that KCBS should market it better, and putting together a ~15 minute YouTube video explaining everything, and having it linked on their website, would certainly help with "pulling back the curtains."

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Kings of Q is a really well run contest. Its one of our favorites to do even though we never score well there.



Most of the people in the RV's actually show up really early, some even come thurs night. There are a lot of very nice people in this area, you just got to get to know one or two and then they will start introducing you to other teams / people. The cooks meeting is a good place to start. As a newish (is that a word?) team myself, I have yet to find anyone who wasn't willing to help.