gtsum
Babbling Farker
Seems like the firebox door could use some re designing. Doesn't make sense To not have more of an opening under the fire grate
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2 Problems for new Yoder Wichita owner
- Thread starter bbqpitsmoker
- Start date
bbqpitsmoker
Full Fledged Farker
With coal only you can run with the door closed, but with splits you need door open without modifying the smoker. Definitely needs a redesign for better drafting. With a couple of splits my standard setting is door vents open 100% with the door itself open 2 inches.
dwfisk
Quintessential Chatty Farker
I ran across this thread a few months ago when I got my Loaded Wichita, and now I am familiar with its shortcomings. Check out this discussion which highlights the design flaws that prevent the Yoder Wichita from being a great smoker: http://community.yodersmokers.com/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1160&sid=b4e160a34c35373a5307074be371fb8d
The major issue I found was that the upper vent is too high on the firebox to prevent the heated air from flowing outward, which reduces the intake area enough to starve the fire of oxygen. I have been cooking with a makeshift door cover with a larger vent at the bottom of it, and I never have issues any more - I just throw a log on the fire and walk away until it's ready for another log.
If you notice here, my makeshift cover is screwed on, which means I have to cook "with the door closed" all the time - proof that Yoder has a design issue here.
Thank you for a well reasoned fix. I build a similar RF smoker/firebox and while I have not had this issue with mine, your vent location lower on the firebox door makes all the sense in the world. Might try it on my next build(s) :thumb:
SmittyJonz
somebody shut me the fark up.
I prefer air intakes below fire grate. Slide intakes are great for this if door is wide enough......
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Big Swole
is one Smokin' Farker
Interesting post about vent in door location. Hmmm
pjtexas1
somebody shut me the fark up.
My shirley intakes are above the grate level. Maybe the oversized intakes help.
SmittyJonz
somebody shut me the fark up.
Apparently the Yoders don't draft as well with the heat management Plate
the Shirley's draft very well
the Shirley's draft very well
slamkeys
Knows what a fatty is.
My contention is that horizontal smokers are the most difficult to get flowing because you're trying to move air mostly sideways. A vertical smoker is simple because the heated air moves straight up and out the top.
When building a horizontal smoker, you still have to consider that flow is generated by rising heated air, which will flow up and towards the path of least resistance. With that in mind, it's easy to see how the Yoder's factory design seems to ignore the need for an upward path of the heated air.
Joe Phillips at Yoder told me his firebox is mounted 1" above the center line of the cooker body. I commented that I thought they had done this as a trade-off to offer a more comfortable height for cooking directly over the fire using the included cooking grid, but someone over there should have known better because the top of the firebox is now far above the low point of the cooking chamber. The heated air has to move downward in order to get past the heat management plate, and the upper vent is also higher than the low point of the heat management plate, which makes the vent the path of least resistance. This is not rocket science.
I've been doing the best I can to overcome the design flaws on the current Wichita with vent mods, but the only good fix would be moving the firebox down where it should be. I'm expecting to see Yoder make some changes based on the negative feedback they've been getting, but we'll see.
Looking into the cooker from here it's painfully obvious why it has flow issues: the heated air literally has to fight past a wall of steel blocking it from going into the cooker, whereas the upper vent hole offers an easy path out of the firebox, which is not good.
When building a horizontal smoker, you still have to consider that flow is generated by rising heated air, which will flow up and towards the path of least resistance. With that in mind, it's easy to see how the Yoder's factory design seems to ignore the need for an upward path of the heated air.
Joe Phillips at Yoder told me his firebox is mounted 1" above the center line of the cooker body. I commented that I thought they had done this as a trade-off to offer a more comfortable height for cooking directly over the fire using the included cooking grid, but someone over there should have known better because the top of the firebox is now far above the low point of the cooking chamber. The heated air has to move downward in order to get past the heat management plate, and the upper vent is also higher than the low point of the heat management plate, which makes the vent the path of least resistance. This is not rocket science.
I've been doing the best I can to overcome the design flaws on the current Wichita with vent mods, but the only good fix would be moving the firebox down where it should be. I'm expecting to see Yoder make some changes based on the negative feedback they've been getting, but we'll see.
Looking into the cooker from here it's painfully obvious why it has flow issues: the heated air literally has to fight past a wall of steel blocking it from going into the cooker, whereas the upper vent hole offers an easy path out of the firebox, which is not good.
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slamkeys
Knows what a fatty is.
I agree with this. I've used the charcoal basket when I need to leave the cooker for a while, and it will burn with the factory vent closed half way for a solid 5 hours until all the coals are exhausted. Apparently coals need less oxygen to burn well. However, I like cooking with oak! That's why I bought a "stick burner"! :grin:
SmittyJonz
somebody shut me the fark up.
The firebox sits too high.
marbque
Got Wood.
I have been able to keep my temps fairly even with our kingman. I have found that if I start a fire too big to fast I will spike on the right side. I have added the log starter and no longer use coal beds. Either way I can close the door on the cooker and have no issues. I have controlled the fire with the door open and it was just as easy.
McSpazatron
is one Smokin' Farker
Looking into the cooker from here it's painfully obvious why it has flow issues: the heated air literally has to fight past a wall of steel blocking it from going into the cooker, whereas the upper vent hole offers an easy path out of the firebox, which is not good.
Seems to be a spot on analysis that is hard to argue away! A smoker with ideal air flow should'nt really have heat spilling out of the intakes, at least I know it's possible. My Peoria has a very low intake, and flows only in one direction. The air near the intake stays at ambient temp around it, up until you get close enough to feel the heat from the metal a few inches away.
In the case you demonstrated, an open door would theoretically make things worse.
slamkeys
Knows what a fatty is.
There seems to be a direct correlation between the low point of the heat management plate and the heat build-up in the firebox. I think the original Yoder Wichita probably didn't have a heat management plate, and customers had less flow issues. We can certainly remove the plate, but I paid for it and I want to use it.
I did an analysis using a 6' level to see where the heat build-up would occur at the fire door. The test requires that the pit be perfectly level, because the unit is built with a downward slope towards the grease drain. When the pit is level, the lower shelf is level.
Here's the lower shelf, which is perfectly level:
The test involves placing a 6' level under the heat management plate, and then leveling it to see where it intersects with the fire door. This should approximate where the heat build-up occurs. I did a quick mock-up using this Yoder side view, but I didn't want to rely on this rendering because I wasn't sure how accurate it is, so I tested this on my actual smoker.
From this angle, you can see that I have the level wedged directly under the heat management plate, and held level using some props.
The level is dead center:
... and here is where it aligns with the fire door:
Notice the smoke build-up line on the inside of the fire door. This completely agrees with this test, and demonstrates that the heat build-up is directly relational to the lowest entry point into the cooker. According to this test, at least half of the upper vent opening will always flow outward, which ruins any design calculations that were used to determine the size of the vent cut-outs.
I did an analysis using a 6' level to see where the heat build-up would occur at the fire door. The test requires that the pit be perfectly level, because the unit is built with a downward slope towards the grease drain. When the pit is level, the lower shelf is level.
Here's the lower shelf, which is perfectly level:
The test involves placing a 6' level under the heat management plate, and then leveling it to see where it intersects with the fire door. This should approximate where the heat build-up occurs. I did a quick mock-up using this Yoder side view, but I didn't want to rely on this rendering because I wasn't sure how accurate it is, so I tested this on my actual smoker.
From this angle, you can see that I have the level wedged directly under the heat management plate, and held level using some props.
The level is dead center:
... and here is where it aligns with the fire door:
Notice the smoke build-up line on the inside of the fire door. This completely agrees with this test, and demonstrates that the heat build-up is directly relational to the lowest entry point into the cooker. According to this test, at least half of the upper vent opening will always flow outward, which ruins any design calculations that were used to determine the size of the vent cut-outs.
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bbqpitsmoker
Full Fledged Farker
Some really great analysis here!
pjtexas1
somebody shut me the fark up.
Yoder should pay you for your time and effort. They will definitely benefit from your work.
dwfisk
Quintessential Chatty Farker
Absolutely agree, as a custom builder I can confirm there is some really good info here!
Richard_
is Blowin Smoke!
Hmm maybe this is why I struggle with my Brinkmann Cimaron , I'm going to try blocking the upper intake
McSpazatron
is one Smokin' Farker
Slamkeys: how is the heat management plate mounted in the cooker? Im wondering if it is possible to somehow prop the low end of the plate up a few inches higher. In order to try and get it to where the far end is level to, or even higher than the plate at the firebox end. That might be an easy way to help eliminate (or reduce) the heat spill at the intakes.
Barring that, it looks like the firebox end plate that you made (the stainless looking one with the single sliding intake) is only a little more intake area than half of the original butterfly intake on the original door. If your arrangement worked well, then it proves that the top part of the original butterfly is redundant (even assuming it were working as an intake, not as a heat dump). How about cutting the butterfly in half at the center, weld on the top half to the door, and rig up the bottom part to slide, using only that as your intake. It's a little bit of work that might pay off if you have access to the tools.
Here's a somewhat random thought. It seems to me that many smokers are "over-intaked". This is probably somewhat oversimplistic, but on the face of things I would think that the intake would not benefit from being much bigger than the size of the exhaust diameter. And because almost all fireboxes are going to leak to some degree, thats an additional source of intake air for the fire (once a draw has been established). I know that many recommend running huge amounts of air through wood fires, but Ive had bad experience with that, because at a certain point when fire is raging and hot enough, it stops being a clean smokeless fire, and instead starts to put out black soot. The wood fire smells different too (Ive read some here it smells perfumey, i thought plasticky or like burning resin).
All that being said, im sure there could be some smoker designs that would benefit from running with an open door, but it would have to be designed to run that way from the beginning (small door relative to size of cooker, firebox and throat sufficiently below cook chamber...also the door would have to be a door cut into the end cap, and not completely open the entire end of the firebox, because that would theoretically dump out half the heat coming from the fire).
Barring that, it looks like the firebox end plate that you made (the stainless looking one with the single sliding intake) is only a little more intake area than half of the original butterfly intake on the original door. If your arrangement worked well, then it proves that the top part of the original butterfly is redundant (even assuming it were working as an intake, not as a heat dump). How about cutting the butterfly in half at the center, weld on the top half to the door, and rig up the bottom part to slide, using only that as your intake. It's a little bit of work that might pay off if you have access to the tools.
Here's a somewhat random thought. It seems to me that many smokers are "over-intaked". This is probably somewhat oversimplistic, but on the face of things I would think that the intake would not benefit from being much bigger than the size of the exhaust diameter. And because almost all fireboxes are going to leak to some degree, thats an additional source of intake air for the fire (once a draw has been established). I know that many recommend running huge amounts of air through wood fires, but Ive had bad experience with that, because at a certain point when fire is raging and hot enough, it stops being a clean smokeless fire, and instead starts to put out black soot. The wood fire smells different too (Ive read some here it smells perfumey, i thought plasticky or like burning resin).
All that being said, im sure there could be some smoker designs that would benefit from running with an open door, but it would have to be designed to run that way from the beginning (small door relative to size of cooker, firebox and throat sufficiently below cook chamber...also the door would have to be a door cut into the end cap, and not completely open the entire end of the firebox, because that would theoretically dump out half the heat coming from the fire).
slamkeys
Knows what a fatty is.
I've done some intake area math in this related thread: Just Bought a Yoder Loaded Wichita
SmittyJonz
somebody shut me the fark up.
Cut the firebox off and weld it back on 2-3 inches lower and block off lower portion of the FB to cook chamber hole. Take pics along the way and post them.......
