IBCA Judging Rules Question

A bump for my Louisiana BBQ Brother!

It is my understanding:

On pre-lim tables all ties go to the final table. This is why the entries on the final table will vary.

If there are ties on the final table, the judging sheets are shuffled and one from each entry is pulled out. Highest score will determine the place.

Jeff,

This is just my guess from what I've seen and not an Official IBCA answer and in fact i don't think that information is made public. First I'll state that we are never supposed to know if there was a tie because we aren't supposed to know any scores. However, when there has been a rumor of ties on brisket, it appeared that the brisket ranking was determined on the highest score in ribs then back to chicken if necessary.
However given the nature of the IBCA whole number scoring, it would seem to me that a fair process to break ties would be to start at Brisket and work back to chicken since brisket is the grand champion tie breaker. So starting with brisket final table ties, you would first revert back to the highest scoring on the preliminary table scores and if that doesn't settle it to go to the highest final table Ribs score, then to preliminary ribs score,the highest final table chicken then highest preliminary chicken then flipping a coin, playing rock paper scissors, guessing a number 1-10, drawing straws, having a foot race, playing a hand of poker, seeing who can hold their hand over hot coals or hold their breath the longest, having a staring contest, or any other form of random draw.
It would be nice if IBCA would make the actual scoring and tie-breaking information public, i just have never been able to find it if they did. Their method of not releasing final table scores or preliminary score to cooks is IMHO not a very good method since it doesn't allow cooks to use that data to try and make improvements but it is the way this sanctioning body operates. Since I make a choice to participate in their contests, i am also making a choice to play by their rules. Every year we can submit rule changes at the annual meeting. I've made two suggestions and am 0-2 in having any rule or method officially altered. To have IBCA BOD make a change seemingly would require that a significant majority of members sign a petition or some form of cohesive documentation to show that enough of their members want such a change and i don't know if anyone has ever attempted that. The only other options you have is to vote for new Board members at the next election who may support change.

As backyard said. At least half of the entries on pre-lim tables move to the next level. If there are ties in the top 50% on a pre-lim table then all tied entries move to the next level. On the finals table any tied scores that affect the money/point positions are shuffled and drawn to determine position, otherwise, they just made the finals table. Example, 1st place is high score, 2-6 are tied, 7 is single, 8-15 are tied. Cards 2-6 are shuffled and drawn to determine place 2-6, cards 8-15 are shuffled and drawn to determine 8, 9 & 10, the balance of the tied cards made the finals table plus others that were on the finals table and not involved in the ties.

These procedures date back a long time and are even used in chili competitions. There is nothing anyone is trying to hide, it's just a procedure the most folks know and respect.

As far as ties goes, a team out of the Pacifice Northwest lost two tie coin flips in Las Vegas at a KCBS contest several years ago (one was a perfect 180) and it cost them $12K in total prize money. I don't think they bitched or lobbied about making major changes, they knew the rules going in. Just saying.....

I never heard of the shuffle and draw method but don't doubt its use. When i judged in a local IBCA contest, i believe i watched the head judge enter all scores in the a spreadsheet and it generated the top 10 based on whatever parameters(macro/algorithm) it was programmed to use.

I go into every IBCA contest knowing the rules and playing by them. I just think the "it ain't broke, don't fix it" method of resistance to any and all possibility for improvement gets old after a while. Our great country wasn't built on that principle but rather a continuing effort to improve and be better at everything we do. There are lots of things in the world that aren't "broke" but could still benefit from the possibility of improvement.However, it is what it is and it is what we have to work with in our area so i abide by the rules and accept the outcomes for what they are.

Contact Lynn at the IBCA website and she can answer any scoring questions you have.

Carnivorous Endeavors BBQ said:

Jeff,

However, when there has been a rumor of ties on brisket, it appeared that the brisket ranking was determined on the highest score in ribs then back to chicken if necessary.

Click to expand...

The nature of the double blind scoring they use wouldn't allow them to know the rib or chicken scores from any of the brisket entries.

Because the judges come off the street or they sometimes use assistant cooks.....as a last resort. I thought the head judge looks for oddities in the score sheets. If one entry has 1's and 2's and just one 10, the 10 is thrown out. Or if one entry has 9's and 10's and just one 1, the 1 is thrown out. This senario may be legit, but looks suspicious, especially if assistant cooks are used. I am a one person team, so I have no problem w/ this.

I always thought they did this to elimate teams stacking the table and not judging the product fairly. Teams spend and lot of time and money and not getting a fair shake is unacceptable.

I had no idea they use thrown out sheets to break a tie. :twitch::twitch:

I'm looking forward to the actual procedure. Let us know.

Went back and read my post on the subject and realized I was not very clear on what happened to the drawn cards. I have rewritten it hopefully to make it more clear.

"On the finals table any tied scores that affect the money/point positions are shuffled and drawn to determine position, otherwise, they just made the finals table. Example, 1st place is high score, 2-6 are tied, 7 is single, 8-15 are tied. All cards are shuffled for places 2-6 and a card drawn and the judges score for tied boxes is used to determine place 2-6, if ties still exist, then another card is drawn. This procedure goes on until all ties are resolved for all tied places. If no resolution, then box numbers in question are placed in a hat and drawn for position. Tied boxes 8-15 are only positioned for places 8, 9 &10 because of GC and RGC point scoring."

This is just my opinion at a glance, but does this whole system seem unnecessarily complicated to anyone else?

As a HJ too I will say that absolute fairness to the cooks is always the main concern, everybody spent time and money to be there and all they want is a fair chance of winning. IMO the IBCA system works very very well. Is the system perfect? NO! Is any pther system perfect? NO! Is there room for improvement in all systems of judging? YES! i am a cook too so I want the same thing al the other cooks want from the system of judging. All I will comment for now.

My first post btw. Howdy from TEXAS.

Thanks for having me too.

IMHO, if I were king, here is the way I would handle the tie breaker. Each tray has a number of judge sheets, say seven. You take the seven sheets from tray A and the seven from tray B. Now look at each set of scores. Tray A has two judges that score it a 10. Tray B also has two judges that score it a 10. Go to the next highest socre. Tray A has two judges score it a 9, but Tray B has only one judge that scores it a 9. Tray A wins with the greater number of highest scores. If they are tied exactly on all scores on both seven sheets, then and only then do you have a random drawing.

I believe this method would keep with the intent of using "the highest score" to determine winners and losers.

Comments?

HAWG, I lie the way you think.

Backyard,

"Because the judges come off the street or they sometimes use assistant cooks.....as a last resort. I thought the head judge looks for oddities in the score sheets. If one entry has 1's and 2's and just one 10, the 10 is thrown out. Or if one entry has 9's and 10's and just one 1, the 1 is thrown out. This senario may be legit, but looks suspicious, especially if assistant cooks are used. I am a one person team, so I have no problem w/ this.

I always thought they did this to elimate teams stacking the table and not judging the product fairly. Teams spend and lot of time and money and not getting a fair shake is unacceptable."

If you read the IBCA rules, there is technically no rule against staffing preliminary tables with Teammates, family and friends. That seems to be perfectly acceptable to IBCA as an organization. The only mention of teammates judging is under promoter obligations(not the rules section) which states that teammates can't judge FINAL table. As written that would seemingly allow a team to get every family member and friend they know to sign up for final table and it would be technically legal under the rules. The only mechanism in place against stacking a table is that Head Judges are supposed to ask if final table judges have any affiliation to a particpating team, such as family, teammate etc...and not let them judge. However, this is entirely at the discretion of the head judges to maintain the fairness and integrity of the judging process as there are no rules against it. In my opinion, no Head Judge would want or allow such indiscretion to occur. Head Judges really sacrifice a lot of time and effort to support IBCA contests with little to no benefit to them. Would I like to see rules written that could be enforced, sure! Do i trust in the Head Judges to officiate a fair contest, absolutely!!!