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Comp Chicken/Educate Me Please

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airedale

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OK, I have now judged three KCBS comps and I have a question. (I was going to post this in the comps forum, but it appears to be pretty dead.)

I have now seen 18 chicken turn-in boxes. Most of them contained six neatly trimmed thighs; some contained drummies. In virtually every case the chicken was cooked near perfection but almost completely uncontaminated by smoke. In every single case, the pieces were coated in identical-looking red sauce. Mostly it was identical tasting (sweet) too.

Is this all there is? I would have instantly given three nines to a piece of chicken that was well cooked and seasoned, with pleasantly crispy skin. By seasoned I mean little more than S&P, maybe some sage or other unassertive spices. (Dare I hope for some decorative paprika? Zatar would be wonderful, but I understand that anything very distinctive is also risky.)

So is this true nationwide? Is all chicken comp boring and coated with sweet red sauce? Sorry to say though I am permitted to take it home, I never do. Ribs, brisket, and pork yes. Chicken, no.

Or have teams tried savory chicken with crisp skin and failed to score well?

Just askin' :confused:
 
Savory chicken can score well, but it can be hit or miss. Crispy skin would do well, but will almost never stay crispy. The chicken sits in a closed box for typically 10 minutes, maybe more, so the steam in the box will most likely soften any crispy skin, unfortunately.

As far as boring chicken, yes, most of it will have sauce and will probably have a sweeter flavor, but sweet shouldn't be dominant. The best chicken I have tasted at a competition had a good balance of sweet, savory and heat. That is hard to do, so it's less common.
 
airedale said:
So is this true nationwide? Is all chicken comp boring and coated with sweet red sauce? Sorry to say though I am permitted to take it home, I never do. Ribs, brisket, and pork yes. Chicken, no.
Click to expand...
Just think of it as a positive. You get to carry a smaller cooler around, which means your arms wont get as tired!
 
10-15 years ago, when I started competing, I had a simple chicken recipe that's consistently scored top 3.. so often it was expected by many. That streak last for several years.. The recipe was simple. some thighs, slightly trimmed of the yuk, but left to look like a chicken thigh. I would Marinade overnight in italian dressing with a package of McCormick zesty herb marinade added to the dressing and a cup of lemon juice. NO RUB. in the morning, I would remove from bag and go directly to the hotspot in my backyard chef skin side down. once the skin was crispy, I sprinkled some head country on the bottom (or Emerils essence...BAM!), flipped it, and finished skin up. A light brushing of KC masterpiece cut with pineapple juice in the last minute. Once that set, it went into the box. 6 imperfectly shaped thighs, with charred skin and a commercial sauce...Took about 30 minutes to prep, and I have a stack of trophies for that chicken...

Then came the chicken pillows.. then the chicken lollipops, and cupcake/muffin pans, butter baths, scraped skin, and meatglue, to produce a piece of chicken that looks like a polished Ruby ready to be set into a Queens crown. It all lead to cooks sitting in corners and rocking back and forth mumbling and dribbling on themselves after hours of chicken prep.

What did it get us? Proof that you CAN polish a turd. A handful of creative teams took the imperfect chicken, shaped it into glistening , perfectly symmetrical little clumps of chicken and blew away the judges changing the bar and expectations . Teams had no choice but to follow suit to remain competitive and what you are left with is exactly what you described.

Cloned chicken that doesn't look or taste much like chicken.

I tried to deviate years later by going back to basics with my old , previously successful recipe, only to get clobbered. It will take a new trend to upset current trends and the sport has gotten to big $$$ for teams to risk it.

Just my humble opinion... Your milage may vary.
 
Our chicken tends to balance savory and sweet. But don't get me wrong, it's sweeter than my homemade chicken.

Comp bbq has gotten this way over the years due to more and more competitiveness. Not as fun as the "good ole days' i'm sure but it had to be expected at some point
 
Funny, I actually like to judge comp chicken. Hate to prep it for a cook, but when I'm judging, I look forward to the chicken.

That being said, I believe that chicken is largely "figured out," in that there are so many teams that can do the current desired style so well, that it's impossible to do anything but lose a comp in that category. In Mankato yesterday a 170 would have got you 31st place out of 42. In this case, the team that won chicken picked up 8 points against the 30th place team.

People complain about scores being so high these days, and it's most apparent in chicken, imo. I believe that this is due to the current style of comp chicken being more processed driven than art driven. It is a very robotic cook, vs the other 3 meats that have so much more art to them (imo).
 
OP here. Thanks, guys. Interesting points.

I think my issue is that the chicken is so boringly the same. If there was any serious creativity it might turn out that I like the chicken with the red sweet sauce. But after six of them in three comps, not so much.

I did give a flavor "9" to one of the red chickens because the cook got a nice mild smoke flavor into it. Otherwise, the red chicken thighs I've been getting are pretty much an 8 for me.

Wings?? How about some wings? Last week I did a batch at home Weber/vortex with Oakridge Secret Weapon rub and a few chunks of apple wood tossed in the coals. I would love to get something like that in a turn-in box!
 
BBQchef33 said:
10-15 years ago, when I started competing, I had a simple chicken recipe that's consistently scored top 3.. so often it was expected by many. That streak last for several years.. The recipe was simple. some thighs, slightly trimmed of the yuk, but left to look like a chicken thigh. I would Marinade overnight in italian dressing with a package of McCormick zesty herb marinade added to the dressing and a cup of lemon juice. NO RUB. in the morning, I would remove from bag and go directly to the hotspot in my backyard chef skin side down. once the skin was crispy, I sprinkled some head country on the bottom (or Emerils essence...BAM!), flipped it, and finished skin up. A light brushing of KC masterpiece cut with pineapple juice in the last minute. Once that set, it went into the box. 6 imperfectly shaped thighs, with charred skin and a commercial sauce...Took about 30 minutes to prep, and I have a stack of trophies for that chicken...

Then came the chicken pillows.. then the chicken lollipops, and cupcake/muffin pans, butter baths, scraped skin, and meatglue, to produce a piece of chicken that looks like a polished Ruby ready to be set into a Queens crown. It all lead to cooks sitting in corners and rocking back and forth mumbling and dribbling on themselves after hours of chicken prep.

What did it get us? Proof that you CAN polish a turd. A handful of creative teams took the imperfect chicken, shaped it into glistening , perfectly symmetrical little clumps of chicken and blew away the judges changing the bar and expectations . Teams had no choice but to follow suit to remain competitive and what you are left with is exactly what you described.

Cloned chicken that doesn't look or taste much like chicken.

I tried to deviate years later by going back to basics with my old , previously successful recipe, only to get clobbered. It will take a new trend to upset current trends and the sport has gotten to big $$$ for teams to risk it.

Just my humble opinion... Your milage may vary.
Click to expand...

Was the walk to the turn in table up hill both ways?
 
Your the judge, you should score it as presented. Didn't you learn that in the class?

You shouldn't be asking anyone on what good chicken is or how it should be presented or why it's presented like that, just score it for what the cook presented. It's just that simple!
 
Burnt at Both Endz said:
Your the judge, you should score it as presented. Didn't you learn that in the class?

You shouldn't be asking anyone on what good chicken is or how it should be presented or why it's presented like that, just score it for what the cook presented. It's just that simple!
Click to expand...
I don't know what point you're trying to make.

From several of the responses, what I am getting is apparently typical. I didn't know that before I started the thread. I thought it might be some kind of regional thing where other parts of the country were getting more chicken creativity. I didn't ask anyone what good chicken was; in fact it was kind of the opposite, asking why I wasn't seeing better chicken and guessing that it was because creativity or novelty was too risky. Seems like, from the responses, that is the answer. Too bad.

Re scoring what the cook presented, I find the attempts to turn a totally subjective question into numerical objectivity to be a bit strange. Also, as someone commented, the scoring seems to be a bit high. My scores turn out to be quite close to the table averages so I guess I paid attention in training, but just reading the scoring criteria I could just as easily be giving those red chickens all sixes, as almost none deviate from the comp average. But then they say to score each sample individually, without reference to any of the others. Doh! "Average" is intrinsically a property of the samples taken together, not the samples evaluated individually. So ... more inconsistency.

Oh, well. At least I am learning a little more about BBQ which will hopefully improve my home version. Thanks again for the discussion.
 
BBQchef33 said:
10-15 years ago, when I started competing, I had a simple chicken recipe that's consistently scored top 3.. so often it was expected by many. That streak last for several years.. The recipe was simple. some thighs, slightly trimmed of the yuk, but left to look like a chicken thigh. I would Marinade overnight in italian dressing with a package of McCormick zesty herb marinade added to the dressing and a cup of lemon juice. NO RUB. in the morning, I would remove from bag and go directly to the hotspot in my backyard chef skin side down. once the skin was crispy, I sprinkled some head country on the bottom (or Emerils essence...BAM!), flipped it, and finished skin up. A light brushing of KC masterpiece cut with pineapple juice in the last minute. Once that set, it went into the box. 6 imperfectly shaped thighs, with charred skin and a commercial sauce...Took about 30 minutes to prep, and I have a stack of trophies for that chicken...

Then came the chicken pillows.. then the chicken lollipops, and cupcake/muffin pans, butter baths, scraped skin, and meatglue, to produce a piece of chicken that looks like a polished Ruby ready to be set into a Queens crown. It all lead to cooks sitting in corners and rocking back and forth mumbling and dribbling on themselves after hours of chicken prep.

What did it get us? Proof that you CAN polish a turd. A handful of creative teams took the imperfect chicken, shaped it into glistening , perfectly symmetrical little clumps of chicken and blew away the judges changing the bar and expectations . Teams had no choice but to follow suit to remain competitive and what you are left with is exactly what you described.

Cloned chicken that doesn't look or taste much like chicken.

I tried to deviate years later by going back to basics with my old , previously successful recipe, only to get clobbered. It will take a new trend to upset current trends and the sport has gotten to big $$$ for teams to risk it.

Just my humble opinion... Your milage may vary.
Click to expand...

So true.. nice to see you post..
 
gettinbasted said:
Creativity isn’t a scoring category in KCBS. This ain’t Chopped.
Click to expand...

Is being bbq a scoring category? traditional comp, chicken has strayed far from many of our (the public not judges) definitions of what bbq is. Doesn't mean it isn't good and I'd like to try it done by someone who does it well. Phil's old school chicken sounds more up my alley.

I'm not trying to knock it, it's a serious question. Does kcbs, or other organizations have a scoring criteria for being bbq or is it just a matter of heat source?


I try and take away the positives from every style; comp, back yard, and restuarant. I've learned to roll up my thighs into pillows with a light trim and scrape to the skin. I grill direct raised over fire but the prep is kinda comp light.
 
smoke ninja said:
Is being bbq a scoring category? traditional comp, chicken has strayed far from many of our (the public not judges) definitions of what bbq is. Doesn't mean it isn't good and I'd like to try it done by someone who does it well. Phil's old school chicken sounds more up my alley.

I'm not trying to knock it, it's a serious question. Does kcbs, or other organizations have a scoring criteria for being bbq or is it just a matter of heat source?


I try and take away the positives from every style; comp, back yard, and restuarant. I've learned to roll up my thighs into pillows with a light trim and scrape to the skin. I grill direct raised over fire but the prep is kinda comp light.
Click to expand...

The judges are all that matter. If they truly want something else, they’ll ultimately get it. KCBS does not (directly) dictate what BBQ is. That has been molded by the decisions of judges over the last 30+ years of KCBS competitions and continues to get defined every Saturday.

From my experience at around 200 competitions cooked and in my restaurants is that people (op aside), almost without exception, have their mind’s blown by properly prepared competition chicken. It’s that far above what they normally get as “BBQ chicken”.

I do feel the OPs pain, however, because I bet that it does get extremely old tasting the same flavors time and time again, but I can’t imagine this is unique to just chicken. I also guess that it makes it extremely hard to judge. He needs to understand that our goal as competition cooks is not to make the best BBQ he’s ever had. That’s too personal. Our goal is to make the best BBQ that 6 different people with different life experiences and different palates can agree on. This is why the top teams go easy on the smoke and why sage or other spices are used sparingly. You may love it, but I promise another judge hates it. We actually want nothing to stand out. If a judge can pick out a particular spice in my food, I’ve lost. We call it middle of the road BBQ (flavor, not quality). I compare cooking chicken to teeing off. I could pull out the driver, swing hard and try for 350 yards off the tee and be damned where it goes, but I’d much prefer to hit one about 230 right down the middle of the fairway and move on to ribs. So I cook pretty, expertly cooked thighs, dunked in a Blues Hog mix. Safe. Down the middle.

The margins between these cooks has become razor thin. Understand that the entries at an event like Mankato last weekend are all going to be very close because the teams were very close in ability. A judge deciding to make up their own scoring criteria such as creativity or deciding that a new average should be formed because all the entries that day are very much the same can have big consequences when the top 4 places were all over 700 and within 1 taste point from 1 judge of each other. The difference between winning and losing could have been not hitting this table in chicken.

There have been many innovations since I’ve started cooking, but eventually the cat gets out of the bag and that innovation quickly becomes the norm. I hear people say all the time is that it should be a meat contest (and I agree). These same people will then talk about the lack of creativity. One thing the homogenization of comp BBQ due to classes and the internet has done is made it all about the meat. When the entire field uses the same (or similar) sauces and rubs it truly does come down to who cooked that piece of meat the best.
 
Last edited:
gettinbasted said:
The judges are all that matter. If they truly want something else, they’ll ultimately get it. KCBS does not (directly) dictate what BBQ is. That has been molded by the decisions of judges over the last 30+ years of KCBS competitions and continues to get defined every Saturday.

From my experience at around 200 competitions cooked and in my restaurants is that people (op aside), almost without exception, have their mind’s blown by properly prepared competition chicken. It’s that far above what they normally get as “BBQ chicken”.

I do feel the OPs pain, however, because I bet that it does get extremely old tasting the same flavors time and time again, but I can’t imagine this is unique to just chicken. I also guess that it makes it extremely hard to judge. He needs to understand that our goal as competition cooks is not to make the best BBQ he’s ever had. That’s too personal. Our goal is to make the best BBQ that 6 different people with different life experiences and different palates can agree on. This is why the top teams go easy on the smoke and why sage or other spices are used sparingly. You may love it, but I promise another judge hates it. We actually want nothing to stand out. If a judge can pick out a particular spice in my food, I’ve lost. We call it middle of the road BBQ (flavor, not quality). I compare cooking chicken to teeing off. I could pull out the driver, swing hard and try for 350 yards off the tee and be damned where it goes, but I’d much prefer to hit one about 230 right down the middle of the fairway and move on to ribs. So I cook pretty, expertly cooked thighs, dunked in a Blues Hog mix. Safe. Down the middle.

The margins between these cooks has become razor thin. Understand that the entries at an event like Mankato last weekend are all going to be very close because the teams were very close in ability. A judge deciding to make up their own scoring criteria such as creativity or deciding that a new average should be formed because all the entries that day are very much the same can have big consequences when the top 4 places were all over 700 and within 1 taste point from 1 judge of each other. The difference between winning and losing could have been not hitting this table in chicken.

There have been many innovations since I’ve started cooking, but eventually the cat gets out of the bag and that innovation quickly becomes the norm. I hear people say all the time is that it should be a meat contest (and I agree). These same people will then talk about the lack of creativity. One thing the homogenization of comp BBQ due to classes and the internet has done is made it all about the meat. When the entire field uses the same (or similar) sauces and rubs it truly does come down to who cooked that piece of meat the best.
Click to expand...

What are the details of this Blues Hog mix you speak of? :wink:
 
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