R
racer_81
Guest
jminion said:
Man....that sounds familiar.....
Brisket Competetors and Judges--Opinion please
- Thread starter The_Kapn
- Start date
Man....that sounds familiar.....
Rob,BrooklynQ said:
I have heard and read that somewhere also and actually believe it should be true. You should not add or subtract points for smoke ring!
But, we are humans.
In FBA training, it was discussed in a similar fashion, but not made a "big deal" of. Then, while discussing Brisket appearance, the instructor stated (to the best of my memory which DF will confirm or correct)--"Look for a smoke ring all around" or words to that effect.
Here is my take on appearance overall and then I will come back to smoke ring.
I think appearance is the first step in triggering taste. For example, an expensive meal prepared by a real chef costs "mega bucks" compared to "Bubba's Dinner".
Karen and I spent $100 (with tip) for FARKING LUNCH at Emeril's in Orlando. And "cheapo me who is a retired old fart on a fixed income", paid it with a smile :lol:
Why?? Good eats, perfectly and differently prepared. and then presented in a perfectly "delicious looking" manner! When my fish main course was served, my tastes buds were ready for quality taste and I was not disappointed in the least. Perfection.
I know a lot more goes into pricing at that level. But, the exact same food served at a "Bubba's Dinner" in the normal "Bubba's Dinner" style would not have gotten that kind of $$$ from me--no way!
Back to Judging.
I know presentation scores are recorded, can not be changed, and normally hidden by turning the card over (FBA). But, I then pick up my sample and "there it is"--good, bad, indifferent, or wonderful! If it is beautiful, I expect good taste and tenderness to back it up. If it is ugly, my expectation is lowered.
If I gave a 10 to a sample for presentation, and then found it to be "shoe leather", it "tubes" texture and taste scores--"Sorry Emeril".
The majority of the samples I saw in middle score ranges pretty well agreed across the 3 scores.
Now, if I had an "ugly" sample which was properly tender and tasty, I am human. It now becomes "Sorry Bubba" and I would be thinking real hard about awarding the very top scores here.
It is simply human nature and judging is done by humans.
Smoke Ring is a traditional expectation in real BBQ.
If DF and I can create a visually appealing display with a good smoke ring showing, we have done all we can do for that appearance score. A good appearance score may (hopefully) support the higher scores for tenderness and taste we need.
OH YEAH--my smoke ring is from my Primo Oak- not chemicals.
The pics were taken with no coolering. If properly coolered, the bright smoke ring blends more and becomes more "brown", but it is still well defined.
Fantastic discussion-
Thanks Guys and Gals!
TIM
I am a "Bubba", so I apologize to myself and any others--if needed :lol: :lol:
J
jminion
Guest
Tim
KCBS does tell judges to disregaurd smokering but you are right judges will give it a higher score than a piece without generally, it is human mature. I like the way you guys are going at this.
KCBS does tell judges to disregaurd smokering but you are right judges will give it a higher score than a piece without generally, it is human mature. I like the way you guys are going at this.
drbbq
is Blowin Smoke!
The cut is a pretty interesting idea. I agree with Jim to move it up to that fat line. That's the part I'm usually looking for anyway. You've just pre trimmed it.
I don't like that much smoke ring. In most cases that would tell me that the meat is gonna be way smokey or it's from tenderquick. Just my opinion. Maybe resting would help some.
I'd eat it, that's for sure.
I don't like that much smoke ring. In most cases that would tell me that the meat is gonna be way smokey or it's from tenderquick. Just my opinion. Maybe resting would help some.
I'd eat it, that's for sure.
Thanks to Jim and The Doc for the latest input!
I hate to "drone on", but I will for a bit :lol:
The Judges that I met at FBA championships were great people.
I think (no I know) that they almost all tried hard to be objective and follow the guidance and rules.
Fine folks trying hard to do a fair evaluation for all competerors.
But, no one at my table had ever fired up a smoker to my knowledge.
Some grilling time, but no competetive Que time.
I can not speculate about the rest of the room--just my 5.
I am starting to sense that KCBS Judges may be more knowledgeable about the "hands-on" part of real BBQ :lol:
If I had said "TenderQuick". I would have probalby drawn stares
Maybe this discussion deserves a seperate thread?
Great learning process--Thanks!
TIM
I hate to "drone on", but I will for a bit :lol:
The Judges that I met at FBA championships were great people.
I think (no I know) that they almost all tried hard to be objective and follow the guidance and rules.
Fine folks trying hard to do a fair evaluation for all competerors.
But, no one at my table had ever fired up a smoker to my knowledge.
Some grilling time, but no competetive Que time.
I can not speculate about the rest of the room--just my 5.
I am starting to sense that KCBS Judges may be more knowledgeable about the "hands-on" part of real BBQ :lol:
If I had said "TenderQuick". I would have probalby drawn stares
Maybe this discussion deserves a seperate thread?
Great learning process--Thanks!
TIM
drbbq
is Blowin Smoke!
I wouldn't overestimate KCBS judges. Frankly, in Florida it's many of the same folks. The KCBS pool is much bigger so you could get some with more actual cooking experience but I wouldn't count on it.
But here's the problem. They talk to each other and some become what we call "Super Judges". You can usually identify them by a bunch of pins on some goofy hat or a vest and some other regalia that makes them stand out.
No need to actually buy a cooker and win an award or two, just hang around and eat and you become an expert.
So now here comes some new judges and they get to talking with a super judge and he tells them about fake smoke rings and how a piece of brisket should stretch 3/8" and sure enough, these new folks believe it and start judging that way.
So the new judge looks at your box and he's never seen anything look like that so he figures it must be the legendary fake smoke ring. Bam, you get a 6 and then he brags about it to his buddys.
I assure you this scenario is real.
But here's the problem. They talk to each other and some become what we call "Super Judges". You can usually identify them by a bunch of pins on some goofy hat or a vest and some other regalia that makes them stand out.
No need to actually buy a cooker and win an award or two, just hang around and eat and you become an expert.
So now here comes some new judges and they get to talking with a super judge and he tells them about fake smoke rings and how a piece of brisket should stretch 3/8" and sure enough, these new folks believe it and start judging that way.
So the new judge looks at your box and he's never seen anything look like that so he figures it must be the legendary fake smoke ring. Bam, you get a 6 and then he brags about it to his buddys.
I assure you this scenario is real.
B
BrooklynQ
Guest
Tim,
When I judged in CT, a KCBS sanctioned contest, at my table 3 out of 6 had competed. Two never even cooked Q and one was going to start competing (me). From disscussions with other judges, before the judging started, I got the impression that the majority of them had not competed, but were "professional" judges - meaning that they traveled the circuit judging, at least the NorthEast portion.
It seems to me that the judges have their own world and just like to judge. There were plenty of conversations about judging at past contests, but few about competing. The judges who competed were there to hone their skills and get better in touch with what the judges were looking for at contests.
IMHO, I enjoyed the judging, but at the end of the day I was worn out by it. At the end of competing in NJ, I was still pumped -- even with no sleep for 2 days. Competing is much more fun. More work, but much more fun.
Robert
When I judged in CT, a KCBS sanctioned contest, at my table 3 out of 6 had competed. Two never even cooked Q and one was going to start competing (me). From disscussions with other judges, before the judging started, I got the impression that the majority of them had not competed, but were "professional" judges - meaning that they traveled the circuit judging, at least the NorthEast portion.
It seems to me that the judges have their own world and just like to judge. There were plenty of conversations about judging at past contests, but few about competing. The judges who competed were there to hone their skills and get better in touch with what the judges were looking for at contests.
IMHO, I enjoyed the judging, but at the end of the day I was worn out by it. At the end of competing in NJ, I was still pumped -- even with no sleep for 2 days. Competing is much more fun. More work, but much more fun.
Robert
chad
somebody shut me the fark up.
Thanks for the input - especially Ray and Jim. Rob - I've cooked with you so I know where you're coming from - some of the judges I talked to looked at me like I had horns when I told them I'd much rather be cooking than judging :mrgreen:. Phil, Greg, et al - thanks for responding.
It is facinating that so many judges have no idea what goes into getting that meat ready. Our FBA trainer kept stressing that to the class - Ricky has competed in the past and I'll give him the benefit of having been there.
Tim and I are working at being competitive and our goal is to make a run at the FBA Team of the Year - part of that is finding the techniques and flavors that give us any legal edge. If we can get optimum sized slices of brisket with tasty bark and the tenderness and flavor we want then we're ahead of the game.
I want an invite to the AR and the Jack and MiM!! I might go and get handed my head on a platter but at least I'll have made a run at it! I'm sure Tim and I will report what happens at Plant City in two weekend after next - that is going to be one long day and a half.
It is facinating that so many judges have no idea what goes into getting that meat ready. Our FBA trainer kept stressing that to the class - Ricky has competed in the past and I'll give him the benefit of having been there.
Tim and I are working at being competitive and our goal is to make a run at the FBA Team of the Year - part of that is finding the techniques and flavors that give us any legal edge. If we can get optimum sized slices of brisket with tasty bark and the tenderness and flavor we want then we're ahead of the game.
I want an invite to the AR and the Jack and MiM!!
I might go and get handed my head on a platter but at least I'll have made a run at it! I'm sure Tim and I will report what happens at Plant City in two weekend after next - that is going to be one long day and a half.
K
kcquer
Guest
DF, come up to the AR next year and visit.
Any other requests?
chad
somebody shut me the fark up.
Only if there's a cooker and meat involved. Visiting a cookoff is like visiting relatives!
I want, nay - I need a reason to haul a rig 2600 miles round-trip to get my ass whipped!! :twisted:
I want, nay - I need a reason to haul a rig 2600 miles round-trip to get my ass whipped!! :twisted:
Solidkick
somebody shut me the fark up.
To me, you've won the battle to get the invite.........I think there was like 80+ teams in the AR invitational, but there can only be one grand champion. If you get the invite, enjoy the competition, you've already proven yourself somewhere along the line, no need to worry about having your head handed to you on a platter.
Like I've said before, I'll eat your cookin' any old time.
DFLittle said:Only if there's a cooker and meat involved. Visiting a cookoff is like visiting relatives!
I want, nay - I need a reason to haul a rig 2600 miles round-trip to get my ass whipped!! :twisted:
Yo Dave.. your way off.. Visiting the jack was a blast.... and if ya know peopl eon the circuit.. ya got lots of places to hang your hat.. I had a great time for 2 days without the stress of cooking... i'd do it again in a minute..
but i wont visit relatives cept weddings and funerals.
chad
somebody shut me the fark up.
Phil;
I can't go to these things to visit, or checkout, or maybe taste somebody elses food! And, I can't afford to travel with a prime rib under my arm :mrgreen:
For me, it's compete or don't go!
chad
somebody shut me the fark up.
BBQchef33 said:DFLittle said:Only if there's a cooker and meat involved. Visiting a cookoff is like visiting relatives!
I want, nay - I need a reason to haul a rig 2600 miles round-trip to get my ass whipped!! :twisted:
Yo Dave.. your way off.. Visiting the jack was a blast.... and if ya know peopl eon the circuit.. ya got lots of places to hang your hat.. I had a great time for 2 days without the stress of cooking... i'd do it again in a minute..
but i wont visit relatives cept weddings and funerals.
Another forum member PMd me about my "smack" of Phil:
Obviously some think I was slamming Phil - I didn't mean to. I respect him immensely and am so appreciative of the times I've visited in his home and the opportunity he have me to help at Asbury Park.
I apologize if I gave the impression that I'm slamming Phil. I just can't go and hang at these events - I wish I could. So, I repeat, I'll go when I can compete - and I wish I could afford prime rib in the suitcase!
Chad
No need to apologize.
We live in the real world. Phil lives in Philville.
No normal sane person walks around in a blue fuzzy hat with horns, and a prime rib under his arm.
But it was a good slam
No need to apologize.
We live in the real world. Phil lives in Philville.
No normal sane person walks around in a blue fuzzy hat with horns, and a prime rib under his arm.
But it was a good slam
Relax DF.... i didnt see no slam....
I live in Philville though?? Thats a slam, but i'll ignore that one.
and I'm proud to have a prime rib under my arm.. some people bring six packs.. or bottles of wine... I bring Prime Rib! Sh*t walked into midwest bash with a prime rib, a tray of shrimp and a crave case of white castles... Didn't hear anyone complaining there. except those who ate the white castles a few hours later.
I live in Philville though?? Thats a slam, but i'll ignore that one.
and I'm proud to have a prime rib under my arm.. some people bring six packs.. or bottles of wine... I bring Prime Rib! Sh*t walked into midwest bash with a prime rib, a tray of shrimp and a crave case of white castles... Didn't hear anyone complaining there.
except those who ate the white castles a few hours later.
Slowly "dragging this back on topic" MOD :lol: :lol:
DOC,
I had some great "t'ween meat" conversations and I can see that happening, for sure. I was lucky and did not have to listen to BS, just good info on "soaking wood properly" by some of the the judges. :lol:
Rob,
This was our goal and we think we profited greatly!
Thanks all,
TIM
drbbq said:
DOC,
I had some great "t'ween meat" conversations and I can see that happening, for sure. I was lucky and did not have to listen to BS, just good info on "soaking wood properly" by some of the the judges. :lol:
Rob,
This was our goal and we think we profited greatly!
Thanks all,
TIM
