Dropping the low score??

I have long been a fan of "dropping" the low score from judging.
I am re-thinking my position on that.

It just dawned on me that for every place(s) a team goes up, other team(s) must go down an equal number of places.
Maybe everyone else knew this and I am just a slow learner :redface:

Using KCBS as an example:
We have two teams with similar scores.
Both teams has solid 8's for the high 4 scores.
Team A has a 6-8-8 for the 5th score and a 5-8-8 for the low score.
Team B has a 7-8-8 for the 5th score and a 6-6-6 for the low score.
(Actually, any score for Team B below approsimately 5-8-8 would have the same result).

At this point, before dropping the low score, Team A is placed higher than Team B (without even figuring the "weighting" thing)

Now, drop the low score and Team B is placed higher than Team A.

That is wonderful for Team B, but not so "peachy keen" for Team A.

Put another (perverted but true) way, Team A was unfortunate to land on a table with consistant judging and Team B actually benefited by getting the low judge.

As I said, this happens because for every place a team moves up, another team must move down.
One "is helped" and one "gets hurt".

I think I am like most teams...I look at a dramatically low score and get p**sed because I got hurt by that Bozo. :evil: :evil:
I fail to notice when the low score is real close to the 5th score and has little effect on my placing or may have moved me up one or more places.

I did a spreadsheet on an FBA comp from a couple of years ago.
This is the chicken catagory only--the other catagories and overall were similar.
FBA uses a scale from 5 to 10 in 1/2 point increments.
200 is a perfect score.
On our score sheets, we get all the judges numbers to inclode a "weighted" total from each judge.

Column 1 is the origonal placing.
Column 3 is the origonal score.
Column 4 is the "weighted" score from the lowest judge.
That makes it easy to "drop" it, as I did to get Column 5 which is the new score after dropping the low one.
Column 6 is the ranking when useing the new score,
Column 7 is the change in places by that team from using all 6 scores to using only the top 5.
NOTE: If you add all the "+" and "-" moves, the sum is ZERO, as it should be.

Several folks would have moved "in and out of the Money" if the low scores were dropped.
"Big Poppa" would have lost $200 by moving from 2nd to 4th.
"Mt. Dora" would have picked up $300 by moving from 7th to 3rd.
Lots of other place changes that had a real impact on $ and TOTY points(to include the overall).

I am not advocating anything here. Just passing on what I learned.
I certainly have a new perspective on the topic.

There is still the emotional thing that a judge "having a bad day" and giving low scores should not have that much influence on the overall score.
I still have that emotional response, but the reality is that there is a price to be paid by dropping the low score.

I have been recommending that FBA drop the low score for a long time---but that is a "two edged sword" and I think (know) I will leave it alone now.



Just some thoughts.

TIM

Fatback Joe said:

Thanks for using the results from a contest where I got 26th in chicken. :icon_blush::boxing::becky:

Click to expand...

Joe, I know what you mean.
I was right there with you at 23rd at this one. :redface:
But, we were in good company--see Myron at #31 that day :-D

I need to clarify something here.
There are no statistics involved whatsoever.
The only math is subtraction (Jethro Bodine called it "take-aways") and that is all.
There are no averages, means, modes, medians, standard deviations, etc--just subtract the low score from the total and then re-rank the teams.
Sample size, meat selected, size of event, or FBA vs KCBS means nothing. Absolutely nothing.

The process here applies to any scoring system that uses an array of numbers and then deletes the low one.
I can only speak to KCBS and FBA because those are the two systems I cook and judge in.

I know the KCBS cooks have a hard time visualizing this because KCBS only provides detailed scoring (by judge) for the teams score, not everyones.

Here is a FBA score sheet from Jesup, GA in 2009.
It might help visualize the facts a little better.



This is the first page only for the pork catagory.
For Jesup, we recieved a packet with 13 pages of detail plus a nice cover sheet.
Thank You FBA :clap2: :clap2:

With this detail, we can see if we were on a table that scored low.
Maybe they got all the mediocre entries, or maybe they were just stingy with scores.
We can also see if a judge hit us really hard and whether they did that to several teams, or just us.

Here is the same scores dropped into a spreadsheet and resorted with the low score dropped.


I picked this one at random, but I would have been the big loser with 5 places gone. Would probably have lost my RGC also, so a loss of almost $2000 and precious TOTY points that day :redface:

A couple of interesting things here.
Git R Smoked stayed in 1st because he had a huge lead over DW.
Mr Cook moved up a lot because he had one judge that just killed him with that 26.XXX compared to the rest of his scores.
We moved down so far because all 6 of our scores were pretty much in agreement. So, when the low score is dropped, it hurt us because all of the teams near us in scoring had a really low score to drop. So, they moved up and we moved down.

Like I said above, Dropping the low score is a 2 edged sword.

Finally, let me try a visual. That might help understand the process.

Lets say the organizer calls all 23 teams up on stage and then arranges them in the order of finish prior to dropping the low score.
Then they move the teams up the line based on the new placing with the low score dropped.
You are me (Flirtin' with Disaster) that day and start 4th in line.
Git R Smoked stays in 1st place. Good for him!
Munchee moves up from 3rd to 2nd and we all clap for him. Except DW that is cause he just lost a place.
DW is right behind Munchee now (instead on in front of him) and stays there.
He goes back and brings Prime Time and Saltine up to 4th place and you move back to 5th to make room. Still clapping some, but WTF :evil:
Then he calls Forrest up from 8th to 5th. Good for him and you are happy for him, but you are now back to 6th and wondering when the bleeding will stop :evil:
Next Mr Cook moves from 10th to 6th and you slide back one more spot. DAMN :evil:
Florida Skin and Bones has been right behind you all this time, but they are now called forward to 7th place and their slide is over. But not yours!
Bethel Smokers was right behind Florida Skin and Bones and you, but now they are called forward to the 8th place. You are wondering if they have forgotten you!!
Finally, you are in 9th place and don't have to move back anymore. WHEW, what a ride!!! :evil:

I could keep on, and put you to sleep even more, but it is all the same drill from there on back to 23rd.

Folks, I am not advocating anything here.
It is just that I used to think that dropping the low score was a good thing and "leveled the field".
Seems to make sense until you evaluate it with facts.
But, It is obvious that that is not the panacea or "fix" that I thought it was.

Simply put, for every place a team moves up, some other team has to move down one.
Great for you if you move up.
Not so great if you are moved down.

Nothings perfect, for sure.

Looks like getting more consistancy with the judging results would be a productive project, not necessarily juggling the numbers.

TIM