KCBS Juding and Ways to Improve It

Transformer BBQ said:
Just wondering where the #2 pencil rule is laid out by KCBS?
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Sorry my bad, not laid out, but suggested as a "standard" to look for. Anything wider could mean that the brisket was overcooked and anything thinner could mean that the brisket was undercooked.

Jorge said:
When you guys have this sorted out I need some help with another idea. I have this idea for a thing that is round, and rolls. I'm thinking of calling it....THE WHEEL!
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That is just way to crazy to even think it would work.
 
OK so here is my thing............I think one of the biggest problems that I see has more to do with the judges experience level.
As we all know BBQ has grown at an incredibly fast pace these past few years as can be seen in the nuber of and size of contests that now take place all over. Here in our neck of the woods it is rather commonplace to hold a CBJ certification the night before a contest begins at or very near the contest site. For many of these folks this is thier introduction to Competition BBQ and it only stands to reason that the more they will become familiar with what is expected, good or bad.
Anyway thats my idea, always tought it curious that folks were more upset about a judge's cooler more than his resume
 
One of the problems I see is that most people want to cook more than they want to judge. I am a CBJ but have never judged because every chance I get I want to cook. On the weekends I do not cook I am doing family things.
I know a lot of people that are just like me. They took the class to try and learn what the judges were looking for and never really judged. This might not be the norm because I believe that many of the brethren also judges.
I suspect that the majority of us would be happy to have any brethren judge because we have passion for BBQ and understand how much of a commitment it is for the cooks. Should there be a requirment for all cooks to judge at least one contest a calendar year providing there is enough contest in the local area?
 
AlabamaGrillBillies said:
I would just like some simple one line type feed back. for example:
meat tough
meat dry
skin rubbery
too salty
too hot
That would help.
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Be careful what you ask for. People know when they like and dislike something but are not always good at articulating the reasons why.

I'm in the education business and we administer course evaluations to every sudent at the end of every course. You would be amazed at the dichotomy of the responses from the same class. Some will say "the course moved to slow" while others "the course was too fast". Some complain about the room being warm while others in the same room complain about it being cold. In the end, students score classes that they like high and ones they don't low regardless of the commentary. In the end, they will find a way to make their individual scores reflect how they "feel" about the experience.

I've seen the same thing on all of the judging reality shows on TV, including the BBQ shows. On American Idol how many times has Paula liked something that Simon didn't?

So how will you feel when you get a scorecard with one judge who thought your food was bland when another thinks it's too salty. And what will you change when one judge calls your entry mushy and another calls it tough? As cooks we already get our knickers in a twist when 1 judge scores a 5 and another a 9. Imagine our collective confusion when the comments from 1 entry are opposed.

The difficult part is that we don't actually get to sample what the judges do. Who knows if the ribs that went in the box are the same ones left on the cutting board. Or if the brisket turned in was better or worse than the brisket we didn't submit. All we know is the score we receive. I contend that's all we need to know. If the score for an entry was low and we don't think we could improve it, it's time to change the recipe.

There is a random element in these competitions. But the teams that do well are the teams that consistently turn in perfectly cooked BBQ. Doing so doesn't guarantee a win but it puts those teams in a position to win every time they compete.

We also do CASI chili contests occassionally and in those events, if your chili doesn't make it to the final table, it's not even scored. And you never get a score sheet or even ranking sheet after the contest.

So, if it ain't broke why fix it?
 
The Pickled Pig said:
Be careful what you ask for. People know when they like and dislike something but are not always good at articulating the reasons why.

I'm in the education business and we administer course evaluations to every sudent at the end of every course. You would be amazed at the dichotomy of the responses from the same class. Some will say "the course moved to slow" while others "the course was too fast". Some complain about the room being warm while others in the same room complain about it being cold. In the end, students score classes that they like high and ones they don't low regardless of the commentary. In the end, they will find a way to make their individual scores reflect how they "feel" about the experience.

I've seen the same thing on all of the judging reality shows on TV, including the BBQ shows. On American Idol how many times has Paula liked something that Simon didn't?

So how will you feel when you get a scorecard with one judge who thought your food was bland when another thinks it's too salty. And what will you change when one judge calls your entry mushy and another calls it tough? As cooks we already get our knickers in a twist when 1 judge scores a 5 and another a 9. Imagine our collective confusion when the comments from 1 entry are opposed.

The difficult part is that we don't actually get to sample what the judges do. Who knows if the ribs that went in the box are the same ones left on the cutting board. Or if the brisket turned in was better or worse than the brisket we didn't submit. All we know is the score we receive. I contend that's all we need to know. If the score for an entry was low and we don't think we could improve it, it's time to change the recipe.

There is a random element in these competitions. But the teams that do well are the teams that consistently turn in perfectly cooked BBQ. Doing so doesn't guarantee a win but it puts those teams in a position to win every time they compete.

We also do CASI chili contests occassionally and in those events, if your chili doesn't make it to the final table, it's not even scored. And you never get a score sheet or even ranking sheet after the contest.

So, if it ain't broke why fix it?
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Well said Paul... great comments...
 
While the KCBS is not perfect, every sport, (because thats what this kind of comes down to), that has judging or a ref has human error. Thats what makes this a never ending competition. We will have good and bad judges and stuff that makes no sense, but we should always have that. Overall the law of averages will win out in the long run, everyone will bitch about the low scrore, but are you complaining about the high score you received when you should'nt have? Example: At the Royal this past weekend. The winner of Ribs in the inv. had 5 scores over 33.5 and then a 29. (makes no sense, I bet Johnny Trigg is calling bull**** on that judge, even though it gets thrown out). Then go to the 25 place team. Purple Turtle. (I am picking them because I helped them). They had 4 scores from 28-31 and then a 36 and a 35.42. But we dont question the higher scores being wrong like the lower ones. Did Purple Turtle have perfect ribs? probably not. Did Smokin Triggers have 29 point ribs? Probably not. The errors will work themselves out, now some kind of feedback I think would be awesome.
 
Judging is subjective, and there's no reason to expect that comment card submissions will be any different. Some remarks will be useful; others not so much. Nevertheless, if comments are required, I will gladly comply to the best of my ability within the given time constraints.
 
I agree.
I have no problems with judges taking home the extras to eat. Id rather see someone eat it than go in the trash. There is sooooooooo much waste produced at contest, and throwing away good food is just re-donk-ulous.

willkat98 said:
I bring my cooler to every event I've judged.

Its a compliment to get your ribs into my cooler.

If it tastes like chit, it goes in the trash.

I'm only judging one bite or two of an entry, not a whole farking piece.

What difference does it make whether it goes in the cooler or in the trash.

you should strive to cook good enough to make it into the cooler.

everything else is chit.

The fragile flower agrees.
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Here is my 2 cents... if judging is so concistent as we are told how the hell do I get
888 878 778 988 888 545 how does this happen. Dont tell me that thay are trained to judge the test only thay judge what thay like. All judges shold have to cook with a team befor thay are alowed to judge.
 
FatBoyz said:
Here is my 2 cents... if judging is so concistent as we are told how the hell do I get
888 878 778 988 888 545 how does this happen. Dont tell me that thay are trained to judge the test only thay judge what thay like. All judges shold have to cook with a team befor thay are alowed to judge.
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Your scores noted tell me the system works...

5 judges fairly consistent and 1 not as forgiving. With the lowest score being dropped (knowing there will not be total consistency) to smooth it out. You received a very consistent overall score in this category..
 
I get that but how do you have 5 people love it and one think its garbage.. that is the piont i am tryin to make inconsistensys when i judge i always watch the other judges to see what thay are thinking and i find many of them have know idea what a cook goes threw to cook for them..that is why i think all judges should have to cook with us once to see what it takes to cook . I think then the judging would be better. I also pulled those score out of my azz but i have seen it done thet way. I was at a contest this year in Ill and the scores where all over the please turned out thay had a 60 40 mix of off the street judges and cbj i did not do to bad here but friends that normaly do very well got hammerd... I am rambilin sorry it's the vicadin for my arm..lol I am going to get off my soap box now before i fall off...
 
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FatBoyz said:
Here is my 2 cents... if judging is so concistent as we are told how the hell do I get
888 878 778 988 888 545 how does this happen. Dont tell me that thay are trained to judge the test only thay judge what thay like. All judges shold have to cook with a team befor thay are alowed to judge.
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The laws of probability are that you will also, at some point, get scores better than you deserve. But when we get those, it's because we had awesome product...or so we tell ourselves.

There is always the A-hole judge out there that is looking for someone to stick it to, because in their mind they are the ultimate authority on what good food is. This is why the lowest score is dropped, and there are table captains and reps in the judging area. Sometimes it slips through. If there are people in the system there will be errors.

As for judges off the street....that's all you find in Texas at IBCA events. They get some quick training and go to work. In some cases the same people come back to judge year after year, so in that case I guess you can't call them 'off the street' judges. Cookers that aren't cooking an event are encouraged to judge. It works out pretty well. If you want to look at something else take a look at how the Wades, Johnny Trigg and others generally do when they are back in Texas and cook. It isn't luck that you usually find them doing very well. Two different judging systems, but similar results.
 
The judging class should be done during an event. Judges in training mixed in with regular judges. Sort of like a mentor. This way they get to experience real comp food from different teams not just one guy cooking a bunch of food and altering the presentation. I know having cooked for a class we did try to alter the food but it was all basically the same. Thge things like pooling, 6 individual pieces can be explained along the way
 
Some cooks clearly get Certified to determine "...what the judges are looking for." A good idea, without a doubt. But, if a percentage of CBJ/cooks avoid actively judging periodically, achieving a 100% CBJ tent is going to continue to be the exception, more than the rule.

One criticism mentioned several times is that judges who don't cook have no knowledge of the process. So farkin' what? Nothing exists that is palatable to everyone, and an appreciation for the effort that went into your barbecue masterpiece isn't going to change that. IMO, there is considerably more value in getting cooks to judge, than requiring judges to cook.

The power to improve consistency in judging is in the hands of those being judged. A cook's lack of interest in judging dilutes not only the judging, but also his/her arguments against the system.
 
I like the system better now than I used to. I used to want comments on why I got low scores but experience has taught us that I dont need a comment when my brisket falls apart or is tough as shoe leather. We know why.
Ive noticed that you dont hear the winners complain much.:icon_blush:
 
Reading through some of these comments makes me realize the system is not bad, bad judges - well that's debatable.

Examples:

1) here's some scores on some recent chicken we turned in
999 888 888 868 967 656
Was it 999 chicken? No
Was it 656 chicken? No, but we got to use the 999 score and throw out the 656, so that's good

2) a recent pork turn in
788 887 767 767 666 646
Yes, this one pains me to include. Reading those numbers hurt, especially when we thought this was good pork. The 6's for taste are more then disappointing, and that 4 makes me want to cry. We realize our mistake (very little sauce) given that the ratio of judges that are also comp cooks was likely very low. That said, we should have thought about this before hand and heavily sauced it. Note to self, cook for the judges...

But it still would be interesting to track each judges scoring history. It's natural for individuals to perceive things differently which will reflect in their judging scores. Thus, after a judge has 5 comps completed it can be seen if judge 12345 has a trend to score high or low. If so and if those numbers are show an extent one way or the other, efforts could be made for judge 12345 to not judge at the same table as judge 56789 because judge 56789 also has a trend of doing the same. Getting two or three judges at the same table with a history of giving lots of 9's or lots of lower scores greatly influence the outcome.

Now I realize this could be difficult (yet possible to do if KCBS keeps records) and trends get bucked from time to time - but if a guy has driven Fords for 20 years, it's more likely than not that his next one's gonna be a Ford too. If possible, let's try to spread the Ford owners around so they mix in with the rest. That's all I'm asking. Hearing from other judges, it's common that they sit with other judges they know and like - which to me could be an indicator of common likes/dislikes, interests, etc.
 
Judges sitting together all the time is not really what I see that much . I have made some pretty good friends in the last couple years during judging but as a rule I tend to get there a little early and where I drop my stuff is where I judge. Also the whole point of doing this is to meet new people, judges and cooks, and it would do me no good to sit with the same people all the time.
And as a rule the rep is shuffling people around all the time anyway. spliting up newbies and hubbies and wives.
ModelMaker
P.S. to those of you thinking sauced up food is the secret, think again ,at every contest I hear a lot more "oh **** look at all that sauce" then I do " I wish they would slop some more sauce on this meat"
 
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