I need judging opinions

eurycea said:
I think it is too complicated for a rule to be written about it. What if there are four thighs and 2 legs on a bed of pulled chicken? Does nobody average them, do 2 judges take a thigh, a leg, and some pulled and average those, the next 2 take a thigh and pulled and average those, and the last 2 just score the pulled, or does each judge take either a thigh or a leg and some pulled and average those? There are just too many options that can be put in a box.
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I respectfully disagree. I do not think it would be complicated at all. IMHO, the rule needs to be two-fold...
1. A judge should try to sample each different type of meat in a box as long as it does not create a situation where a judge will not receive a piece of meat to score.
This is pretty much the way it is already handled, and I have not heard any contradictory information to my first point. Still though, I think it needs to be on the CD.
2. When judging multiple cuts of meat from the same entry, the judge should...(and this is where they say either score the best piece, or use an aggregate.)
The key here is that I really don't care which way it is. I will be just as happy doing it either way, but I think that the KCBS should first figure out how they want it handled and tell us. Then, if we as member judges disagree with their decision, we can have a much more tangible debate/discussion over that, but in the mean time, the cooks are being treated fairly which is not happening now.

eurycea said:
I think they have
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I appreciate your point of view, but in this I could not disagree more. The KCBS has not said how they wanted it handled. They have completely ignored the issue by saying that it is at the discresion of the individual judge. That is nothing but a cop-out in my opinion because, as I mentioned before, this is a PROCEDURAL matter. Issues such as this are exactly the sort of thing that the KCBS should be giving guidence on.

Lake Dogs said:
> Since I was taught something different I emailed KCBS and asked what was right.
> The response I got was that it is up to each judge to decide. If that is the
> current policy then instructors and reps shouldn't be teaching something different.

Wow. Up to each judge to decide... And now wet get to the heart of the problem.
They have no clue there is a problem. That, or they want to embrace inconsistency.

Not good.
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Ok, so the question then becomes...How to we get them to see that there IS an issue, and then to take it seriously. To be honest, apart from the few threads I have read here, I don't really know much about how things work(or don't) in the BOD. Does anyone have any good ideas as to the best process to get these ideas heard?

Lake Dogs said:
Talk about where KCBS
should spend the money, THIS is where they should spend the money. Every
CBJ should have/possess this book, without any exception. It should be their
judging bible. In it should be an exact "judges charging" section so that at ever
competition they're charged (ala. tasked) exactly the same.
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I agree, but I think it needs to go even deeper than that.
When we go through judging class, we are given a book(at least I was) that was meant to give us everything we needed to know as judges. While I think the book is pretty good, it basically is a transcript of the CD. I think that this book needs to be expanded to deal with issues like the ones we are talking about here. I also think that this book should be available online as a downloadable PDF or something. Then, whenever changes are made to the procedures, the book can be updated, and an email sent to all CBJs, letting them know that they need to go to the website and download the new addition.

Secondly, I think that there needs to be some continuing education requirements for judges. It is really the only way to make sure that everyone is on the same page. It could done entirely online. You could choose a subject you wanted to learn more about, and then go through a little online tutorial that ended in a short quiz...or maybe you get credits for going to or listening to the BOD meetings...something. I don't have all of the answers, but I imagine that there is some reasonable way for it to happen.

Finally, there needs to be an open, accessible, and functional conduit by which issues raised by either cooks or judges are taken seriously and discussed fairly.(I am not saying for sure that there is not one, but if there is, I don't know about it.)

None of this matters, however, if we don't somehow manage to convince the BOD that there are inconsistencies, and that these inconsistencies are simply unacceptable. I don't have an ax to grind with the BOD. I am sure that they are doing their very best to do what they think is right, but if we want the KCBS be the preeminent authority for BBQ in this country, the fact that we cant even seem to get our own house in order is frankly embarrassing.
 
I judge each entry "as presented" by the cook. To me this means judging not to my own tastes, but did the cook achieve a good blend of flavors from the meat, spices, smoke, sauce, etc. If I'm supposed to go by this definition of "as presented" then I feel that I should judge the whole box, not just the "best" piece.


After all; you wouldn't want me to judge just the "worst" piece, would you?
 
daedalus said:
I respectfully disagree. I do not think it would be complicated at all. IMHO, the rule needs to be two-fold...
1. A judge should try to sample each different type of meat in a box as long as it does not create a situation where a judge will not receive a piece of meat to score.
This is pretty much the way it is already handled, and I have not heard any contradictory information to my first point. Still though, I think it needs to be on the CD.
Click to expand...

So in the example I used the first 2 judges should take 3 types, the next 2 take 2 types, and the last 2 get 1 type - I think that is absurd. But even if that is the way you think it should be done your still going to have to come up with definitions of types. In chicken is each different piece a type or is it how its presented? In my example I think judges can figure out that they can choose a thigh or a leg and also get some pulled - but how do you write it as a rule?

"If there are at least six of a type you are required to sample that type, but if there are less then six samples of a type you should only sample one of the of those types unless there are 3 or more types that have less then 6 samples but at least 4 samples of each type then each judge should sample 2 of the types."

That doesn't even cover all situations. Obviously the way to rectify the potential rule is to require cooks to turn in at least enough for 6 judges of each type which would make the definition of type extremely important. And if you want a definitive policy as to whether the scores should be aggregated or only scoring the best you have to have a rule about sampling multiple types. I think we have enough rules as it is now.

I'm all for having a definitive policy, but I don't see how you can do it without making things a lot more complicated.

If you want to add something to the CD I'd suggest something along the lines of "If there are multiple types of meat presented, judges should use their common sense to try to split the samples as equally as possible"


I think most judges are smart enough to figure out how to handle entries with multiple types and if they are consistent with how they judge them then I don't see it as a big problem. There are much bigger issues with judging then this.
 
Rookie'48 said:
I judge each entry "as presented" by the cook. To me this means judging not to my own tastes, but did the cook achieve a good blend of flavors from the meat, spices, smoke, sauce, etc. If I'm supposed to go by this definition of "as presented" then I feel that I should judge the whole box, not just the "best" piece.


After all; you wouldn't want me to judge just the "worst" piece, would you?
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I agree with this approach and this is essentially what was taught in the class that I took. If the team puts it in the box, they want to be judged on it as an overall turn in.
 
As a judge (with table captain experience), I would give the entry an aggregate score and not just the best score of multiple cuts. This is a good thread and I have encountered the confusion that results from entries that do not have similar samples for each judge. I would say that it is not in the best interests of a team to confuse the judges.....we are already hopelessly confused already.

I am judging at the Sedalia, MO. event this weekend and I will ask some of the other judges what they think about this.
 
I can't remember from my judging class, but do you have to eat one of each type in the box? If I did pulled, chunks and sliced pork do you have to try all 3?
 
If there is more than 1 sample "cut", I encourage the judges to take one of each. This usually just applies to brisket and pork.
 
I'm surprised to here that some have been taught to "score the best piece of meat". Every CBJ class and Rep I have questioned on this issue here in Georgia has unequivocally said you should give an aggregate score for the entire entry.

My personal opinion is that it is wrong to exclude anything in the box from scoring. If we are to ignore the taste of a bad chicken wing because we like the thigh better, should we do the same for presentation, giving a box a nine because the thighs look perfect even though the wings are carbon black? Omitting any meat in the box from judging is problematic and incorrect as I see it.
 
CivilWarBBQ said:
I'm surprised to here that some have been taught to "score the best piece of meat". Every CBJ class and Rep I have questioned on this issue here in Georgia has unequivocally said you should give an aggregate score for the entire entry.

My personal opinion is that it is wrong to exclude anything in the box from scoring. If we are to ignore the taste of a bad chicken wing because we like the thigh better, should we do the same for presentation, giving a box a nine because the thighs look perfect even though the wings are carbon black? Omitting any meat in the box from judging is problematic and incorrect as I see it.
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Write to Ed Roith and get your clarification, he is in charge of the judges and instructors.
 
Very interesting thread. Most of the topic has covered varying chicken pieces or pork pulled vs chunked, etc. How would you guys approach it if this was done with ribs? Say you open a box that contains half spares and half baby backs? You are not going to get 6 of each in a box so assuming 3 of each, do you reach for a spare if they are your preference over baby backs? Does this scenario change anything?
 
TheJackal said:
Say you open a box that contains half spares and half baby backs? You are not going to get 6 of each in a box so assuming 3 of each, do you reach for a spare if they are your preference over baby backs?
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This approach is just begging for a PO'd judge. Without a doubt someone is not going to get whatever his/her favorite rib is. I would say that this would be kinda like giving 3 slices of brisket and 3 burnt ends - not a good move.
We, as judges, are not suppossed to judge down for what "isn't in the box" but I have heard complaints like "No one turned in any burnt ends, that sucks" or the one about "Why would anyone turn in spares that aren't trimmed St. Louis style?" These judges aren't very common but they do exist.
 
So being new to sanctioned events, I have to ask - Do most judges give any consideration to "stepping out of the box" when it comes to turning in miltiple cuts of a meat?

I'm not talking best case scenario or anything...

Say I turn in thighs and breast. I know that typically sliced breast is much more risky to offer since chances of it drying are higher, so does that technically score me any more points with the judges, just because i can turn in an alright sliced breast and thighs?
do the judges get excited when they see a box thats not full of sauce dipped thighs, but actually has something different to offer?

great discussion!!
 
Emotions always run high on topics like this. I am a cook , CBj and have helped on a few bbq judging classes. I know cooks want a fair shake and just the rumor of something unfair will send a cook in orbit!We have done multiple entries for everything but ribs. We feel that it is better to give judges a choice. A judge in not require to taste everything in the box. They can pick and choose. The reality is that luck plays a big part of it. One contest that we won a Gc in and they found foil in the box of first Place pork after the scoring was over ! I also sure that luck went against us at times too! Our goal is to do our best and hope for the best result. Just my humble opinion.
For as picking the best and scoring, I believe that judge , treated everyone the same.We are never going to get inside every judges head and know what and why. BBQ should be fun and relaxing.

To put things in prespective about this judging issue: I haven't talked to my brother and his family for over almost three years. It was an issue that dealt with me and my 16 y/o niece at the time.Really something stupid. Now she is graduating high school and guess who they wanted to BBQ for the graduation!It is funny, something we fuss about so much and How it can brings us back together again.
What is really important?
 
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If a competitor is witless enough to not put his best effort in the box, why should he not be given the lower score? The averaging is a good middle-route, but artificially raising the score to reflect the best sample in the box only lessens the effort of other competitors. Remember, you are judging the box, not the individual samples. Am I wrong?
 
Barring all the greens, If its in the box I should be tasting it. If there is a mix of meats I think there should be enough for 6 portions of each.
I would be judging the whole entry.
Supporting my understanding of this is when I judge on appearence, I look at the whole box. I wouldn't cherry pick one rib bone or chicken part to base my scoring.
I feel It would be a disservice to the cooks to ignore part of their entry.
 
Actually when you judge for appearence/presentation you are judging the entire box as a whole.

When you are judging taste/texture you are only judging about 16% of the box ( 1 of 6 portions). Therefore you are judging only your sample and not all of the samples. If there are multiple cuts of meat AND enough samples to allow every judge to have multiple samples then by all means take one of each and score on the composite attributes (same as presentation). If the cook put it in the box he intended it (all of it) to be judged.

If there are not enough multiple cut samples to take one of each then use disgression and take only enough to make sure all judges get at least one sample.
Let common sense dictate.
 
LindaM said:
Write to Ed Roith and get your clarification, he is in charge of the judges and instructors.
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I sent an e-mail regarding this topic and one other to the entire BOD on 6-9. No written response yet. Maybe this will be on their next agenda. I did hear from a BOD member at the contest last week in OC. His opinion is to average the scores. However, a procedure needs to be written telling all CBJs how to handle the scoring for different cuts of meat being sampled. The only way to make sure every cook is being treated the same is to have as little ambiguity in the judging process as possible. Our subjective tastes are widespread enough as it is.

Benny
 
I always sample everything and score for everything as an aggregate score when I judge. As a cook, I only put things in the box I want judged, so I judge the same way. If my pork butt doesn't slice well, slices don't go in the box. Maybe a judge will hold that against me, but not as much as turning in poorly cooked slices would.

You do take your chances with the judge's preferences. At my CBJ class, we were given the KCBS guidelines, but also told to judge on the basis of what I, as a judge, liked. If we get candy ribs, and I don't like sweet, then judge it accordingly. Tenderness can be somewhat objective, but flavor profile is completely subjective. I don't think anything the BOD does can change that aspect of a contest.
 
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