Discussion on sliceing pork and putting it back in the cooker

With my track record in pork recently, I'm not gonna complain about it however, I don't see why there SHOULD be a problem with say removing the muscle you are targeting when it gets to slicing temp and putting the rest back in to take up to pulling temp. Hell, if you want a lot of the money muscle for your presentation and you only cook two butts, you're in a bind. I mean seriously, it makes it MORE difficult, not less to do this because you not only have to be right on in catching the slicing temp just right, you also have to be right on with the pulling btemp so it doesn't turn to mush.

I agree Steve. It's an interesting topic.... I think the rule is there to keep folks from parting while cooking. Or some would say substituting a tenderloin for a "money muscle".

There are no other rules with any of the other meats about parting... and no rules about not being able to finish/hold in a cooker.

I guess we need to get more specific, and state that you cannot cook the meat "further" - so if you have taken it to 190 and sliced.... putting it in a 190 degree cooker to keep warm or "finish" with sauce, would not be cooking any further...

If you can't put the meat back over a heat source, how do they expect you to keep it above 140 degrees for safety sake? I think most folks would slice and put back in a warm cooker to keep from turning in meat that is not warm enough to serve.

Oh well, I am sure we will find more out if the real question, about "finishing" comes up. My meat is not parted until after it is cooked.

this raises another question for me. what is the prefered "legal" method of heating the sauce?

There are no legalities regarding sauce, only meat. Feel free to use your gas burners to heat your sauce as long as they are not attached to your pit.

I don't quite understand why their is a distinction between parting a pork muscle and parting a brisket muscle. The point on a brisket requires further cooking after separating it from the flat. Why is this legal and not the removal of the money muscle before it is over cooked. Perhaps this is a question better left no asked to the board.

Just another thought then, if brisket flats can be cooked from a raw state without the point then can pork butts be cooked without the money muscle from a raw state as long as the butt exceeds five lbs in weight? I think I just answered my own question as I was typing though. I assume then that the money muscle would have to exceed or equal 5 lbs of weight then if cooked separately.

I guess it appears that the only way to get a properly cooked legal money muscle then is to cook the entire butt to the desired internal temp of the money muscle and then have separate butts for pulled pork.

What if I take my charcoal basket out of the cooker before the pork goes in?

Mike Lake incorrectly stated the discussion. If it truly was the discussion started here. No one questioned whether putting half a butt back in to bring to pulling temp was illegal. We all know that is. What was either brilliant strategy or a complete oversight in doing so is that this issue probably won't be brought up again and if it is someone will cry "we already addressed that" and move on.

IMO the rule is there so that more preferred or higher quality pieces are not substituted for the shoulder. Or that people don't butcher out the preferred pieces in a shoulder i.e. money muscle and just cook it alone. That is strictly my interpretation of the rule. I see it as a friendly rule to keep the competition on an equal playing field. Unfortunately we will never be able to accurately interpret this rule unless we define cooking. Many could say that once a shoulder is pulled at "commonly accepted" temperature for doneness that the cooking side is done. Anything beyond that would be considered maintaining temp. Others could say that any introduction of heat is considered cooking and all meats should maintain enough heat after cooking to meet the HD requirement. Still others may find a gray area in between. The problem with the commonly accepted temperature is that someone could push the limit and pull at around 190 for slicing, pull the muscles they want and then return their meat to a 200+ cooker to boost the rest to pulling temp. Then again those who state any heat is cooking will have to wrangle with the use of cambros and "other" heat sources like cooked briskets. I've seen my cambro hold heat for days. Then there is the use of sauce. What if your sauce imparts heat, is that cooking too?

So the question at hand is do we trust in the integrity of teams to not purposefully cheat or do we bring this to the board as it has been questioned here. I think we are overthinking this rule and its intention but there is merit in what others say to the contrary. Maybe the fact that the use of specific muscle groups has become common practice and its use almost a necessity does lend itself to a need for interpretation. Not because people are trying to cheat but that the cook style now requires a more thought out definition of the rule. I think it would be a mistake to redefine the rule but I'm not a board member.

Double D's BBQ said:

I don't quite understand why their is a distinction between parting a pork muscle and parting a brisket muscle. The point on a brisket requires further cooking after separating it from the flat. Why is this legal and not the removal of the money muscle before it is over cooked. Perhaps this is a question better left no asked to the board.

Just another thought then, if brisket flats can be cooked from a raw state without the point then can pork butts be cooked without the money muscle from a raw state as long as the butt exceeds five lbs in weight? I think I just answered my own question as I was typing though. I assume then that the money muscle would have to exceed or equal 5 lbs of weight then if cooked separately.

I guess it appears that the only way to get a properly cooked legal money muscle then is to cook the entire butt to the desired internal temp of the money muscle and then have separate butts for pulled pork.

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Because someone could sub a pork tenderloin and turn that in sliced. There really isnt another beef product you can sub for the point.

Rick's Tropical Delight said:

this raises another question for me. what is the prefered "legal" method of heating the sauce?

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I did a double take last weekend as I was heating up some sauce in my new microwave. I think you can do whatever you want to heat the sauce, as long as there isn't any meat in it.

Talk about wording it so you can get the answer you want. I am glad they had the discussion, still doesn't make my interpreation illegal!!!!!!!!

:shock:

Buster Dog BBQ said:

Because someone could sub a pork tenderloin and turn that in sliced. There really isnt another beef product you can sub for the point.

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And that would be grounds for not only DQ but a permanent ban for life from all KCBS contests. The inconsistency of the issue is what is important here. With brisket you remove the point when the flat is to its desired temperature remove the excess fat, apply more rub and then throw it back on the cooker for a couple more hours. Don't see any difference between removing the money mucscle for slicing and then throwing the remaider of the butt back on the cooker until it's internal temp raises 20 degrees or so for pulling.

I don't even want to go down the road of substituting higher quality meats as that is blatantly dishonest and leaves no room for interpretation. I guess if someone wants to win that badly they could chop up some prime rib for burnt ends and some judges may or may not pick up on it. It just seems to me that if parting and recooking is good for one form of meat it ought to be good for another. Its blatant discrimination. Where is Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson when we need them!:shock::-D

YankeeBBQ said:

The topic of slicing or pulling pork and putting it back in the cooker was discussed at the KCBS board meeting tonight. Of course the way it was brought up was actually a little disingenuous in my opinion. Mike Lake said that people were asking about partially cooking their pork then slicing part of it off and putting it back in the cooker to finish cooking. I don't think that's what most people were doing. I think people were fully cooking their pork pulling some and slicing some applying sauce and putting it back into the cooker for a short period of time so it would get to the judges hot.

The way Mike stated it everyone on the board was against it. I think if it was presented in a factual manner the outcome may have been different. Oh well no big deal. Just make sure your sauce is nice and hot when you apply it and I'm sure it will do the same thing (first place pork in Wildwood)

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It's too bad the issue wasn't properly presented. We just want our food nice and hot (and SAFE) for the judges. Why can't we restate the rule that after a certain temp the butt is cooked and we can do whatever we want. The way people butterfly their butts the money muscle IS being cooked by itself, who are we kidding here. 2 cents...

Quit sh)t disturbing. We all know the rule and it's clear. Pork is cooked whole and that's it. May not be what you like but it's the rule and it's for everybody. Brisket has no such rule and you can cook flats or whole packers so it's your choice.

Pork can't go back in the cooker once parted even to rewarm. Simple rule and if you don't like it submit a request for the next rules meeting to change it.

Lakeside Smoker said:

What if I take my charcoal basket out of the cooker before the pork goes in?

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Excellent question! Now it is just a warm cambro.

^^^^^^^^clear, as you see it!!

Ford said:

Quit sh)t disturbing. We all know the rule and it's clear. Pork is cooked whole and that's it. May not be what you like but it's the rule and it's for everybody. Brisket has no such rule and you can cook flats or whole packers so it's your choice.

Pork can't go back in the cooker once parted even to rewarm. Simple rule and if you don't like it submit a request for the next rules meeting to change it.

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Clear is one thing it is not.

Ford said:

Quit sh)t disturbing. We all know the rule and it's clear. Pork is cooked whole and that's it. May not be what you like but it's the rule and it's for everybody.

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Exactly. Many teams around the country are winning without putting it back in the smoker (regardless of term cooking-warming). I'm really puzzled why some feel they need to put it back in there anyway.

Since we're all doing the same no one is handicapped by not putting it back in there.

Ford said:

Pork can't go back in the cooker once parted even to rewarm. Simple rule and if you don't like it submit a request for the next rules meeting to change it.

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I respect your opinion, I truly do, but thats what it is...an opinion. Others here have a different opinion and that should be respected too.

.....PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Picnic and/or
Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of five (5) pounds.
Pork shall be cooked (bone in or bone out) and shall not be​

parted......

i) ​

​

​

​

​

Must be held at 140° F or above OR
ii) Cooked meat shall be cooled as follows:
(1) Within 2 hours from 140° F to 70° F and
(2) Within 4 hours from 70° F to 41° F or less
(3) Meat that is cooked, properly cooled,
and later reheated for hot holding and serving
shall be reheated so that all parts of the food
reach a temperature of at least 165° F for a​

minimum of 15 seconds.

Here is a definition of warming, not cooking. So doesn't this state that there is a point when cooking is done and the need for the parting rule exits. Or would the expectation be that the shoulder is still intact? Again these would be opinions or interpretations.

I think there is enough room for interpretation that I probably wouldn't summon a rep over it. I might talk to a team about it.

The way I read the rule, placing a portion of a butt back in a cooker that is hot is parting. If the cooker is cooler than the meat I've got not problem. I know of more than one team that actually use FECs as an electric cambro. No problem with that.

I'd just like a little clarification from the BoD so that this doesn't become an issue at a contest. I've heard that various reps don't always agree on what is, and isn't legal. In my mind, THAT is the biggest issue. I'd hate to see anybody get burned, over an issue that can easily be clarified for all.