Judging Rings and Garnish

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Pig Pimp 21

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(Excuse this first post, as I am sure it has been discussed ad nauseum before, but I couldn't make the forum search work for me - something about restrictions on newbs I think.)

In looking at judges' comments at places like BBQ critic, I notice again and again that there are comments on garnish and smoke rings. We all know those things shouldn't be considered in scoring, but let's face it, some judges consider them. And some who know better probably do subconsciously.

Is it a disservice to those new to competition (like me) to suggest that those aesthetic "non-factors" are really irrelevant? When one point can make the difference shouldn't we just come out and say it - garnish and smoke rings matter to judges.

Also, do judges get feedback to know if their scores are anomalous? (This is really a different topic, but I don't want to overdo the new threads right off).
 
From my perspective it is common knowledge that these factors are important. Now at the CBJ class they teach the jugdes not to score based on these factors, but if they weren't relevant cooks wouldn't make artificial smoke rings and putting greens to begin with.

The point is attention to detail is paramount to success in this game, even if they are details that judges are taught to not may pay attention to. If it makes your meat look good, do it!:thumb:

As far a judges knowing if they are scoring different than the rest of the table, it is at the reps' discretion to discuss with the judge and let them know. I know some reps are better than others at this. Do I wish more could be done so judges could get statistical feedback of their scoring patterns? You bet.
 
Subscription, eh? Guess I've been lurking in the wrong places and missed that option. I think I should hold off on the subscription until I can assess how well folks around here tolerate me.
 
Look at the very bottom of the page for a Google Search bar keyed to this site.
Not the most elegant, but does work.

Don't worry about "tolerate"....

Welcome aboard.

TIM
 
Down here in tx, of you put salad in your box or cover it with BBQ sauce, your chit is gettin thrown in the trash and automatic dq! And I like it that way and I have no desire to compete outside of that realm. Heck even in our non sanctioned events, if it's not a vinegar based mop and it looks glazed, trash can! I love it, let the BBQ speak for itself, sauce is for the people that need to cover up their BBQ. I do admit to using TQ for a unspecified amount of time in both cookoffs, but we do well, so gonna keep doin it.
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It's not near that big at cookoffs. Left that one on for 30 min
People get all wrapped up in stuff that don't matter. It should taste good and be tender
 
I think that it doesn't take very long to figure out that garnish, presentation and smoke ring will matter in the end. But, I would say that most folks will realize that long before they nail all the other factors needed to get a good cook produced.
 
O L D debate on garnish; KCBS will not rid itself. Going back to the founders, they felt strongly that it separated KCBS from other sanctioning bodies, and so it shall stay. They dont care about debate about it IS judged, consciously or unconsciously, it's part of the history that isn't to go away.

I can tell you that a few of the best looking pork, brisket, and rib boxes I've ever seen had no garnish. Use it, or dont.

As to the smoke ring, that's a very toughie. For many people, the smoke ring and the very nature of it is what IS part of what IS appetizing in BBQ. Not all are appetizing, but some without it can be overly un-appetizing... It's not so much that they're judging it, perse, but that it contributes to the appealing nature of the Q. Luckily appearance score is weighted low.
 
Garnish is optional, but nonetheless gets used to enhance appearance via the contrast it introduces. It is hard to ignore a well garnished entry, but most judges can get past it. Garnishing is so established that I've seen only one non-garnished box in the last five years.

Currently, the only feedback to judges is via the Table Captain who, in some circumstances, inform new judges if their scores are high or low compared to the rest of the table. New software will allow for judge tracking in the future.

Hub
 
Hub said:
Garnish is optional, but nonetheless gets used to enhance appearance via the contrast it introduces. It is hard to ignore a well garnished entry, but most judges can get past it. Garnishing is so established that I've seen only one non-garnished box in the last five years.


Hub
Click to expand...
And how did you judge or IMO which alot of judges do "grudge"
I have heard coments like : not full enough, not enough sauce, etc etc
I have even heard of comments like : didn't appear to be cut from the same rib
I will stick with my good ol tx BBQ associations where they judge nothing but the BBQ
:crazy:
 
jmoney7269 said:
Left that one on for 30 min
People get all wrapped up in stuff that don't matter. It should taste good and be tender
Click to expand...

Jmoney, I know you said you do fine w/TQ but I will tell you that judges that cook BBQ/brisket will recognize it. I know I do, the smoke ring on the sides give it away for me. Unless the flavor is really good, I'd probably score it down a point or 2. You probably already know this, just FYI.
 
JS-TX said:
Jmoney, I know you said you do fine w/TQ but I will tell you that judges that cook BBQ/brisket will recognize it. I know I do, the smoke ring on the sides give it away for me. Unless the flavor is really good, I'd probably score it down a point or 2. You probably already know this, just FYI.
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And that's why you shouldn't be a judge! Just FYI. What gives you the right to presume the use of TQ and score down on a brisket? If I were a team which does trim the flat to fit the box before cooking, and there is meat exposed with No rub, the ring will be larger or to a non knowing judge to be enhanced. You are not supposed to make appearance scores based on a smoke ring which is actually a natural process of cooking. Woods contain nitrates as they burn the affect the meat. Pretty soon, any appearance of a smoke ring will be bad, and none will be allowed at all. Gimme a break. As a practicing lawyer, we tend to know these thing. Assumption is not perceived as truth or even law. As I disagree with you in this aspect, now you have no presumptive right.
 
jmoney7269 said:
And that's why you shouldn't be a judge! Just FYI. What gives you the right to presume the use of TQ and score down on a brisket? If I were a team which does trim the flat to fit the box before cooking, and there is meat exposed with No rub, the ring will be larger or to a non knowing judge to be enhanced. You are not supposed to make appearance scores based on a smoke ring which is actually a natural process of cooking. Woods contain nitrates as they burn the affect the meat. Pretty soon, any appearance of a smoke ring will be bad, and none will be allowed at all. Gimme a break. As a practicing lawyer, we tend to know these thing. Assumption is not perceived as truth or even law. As I disagree with you in this aspect, now you have no presumptive right.
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Just looks unnatural and overdone to me bro. Much rather see a natural ring when I open that box. Personally I see no reason to enhance it when it occurs naturally.
 
Justin...

If they are judging nothing but the Q down here in Texas, why use Tender Quick?

And there is sauce used in every competition around here, to say that it gets thrown in the trash is inaccurate.

The OP was obviously directing his comments toward a KCBS type cook, no need to hijack the thread.
 
chrisnjenn said:
Gotta laugh at these Texans sometimes.

And I will stick with the good ole KCBS.
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In our area (including you in the our) we also have GBA, MBN, FBA, and can probably get an SC and AL sanctioned contest or two in a GA town here n there... No garnish.
 
JS-TX said:
Just looks unnatural and overdone to me bro. Much rather see a natural ring when I open that box. Personally I see no reason to enhance it when it occurs naturally.
Click to expand...


Let me refine my words a little. That was when I first strarted experimenting With TQ a while back. If you put a thick coat of rub on, you will get a minuscule smoke ring when cooking H&F. Furthermore half of my comps are unsanctioned and the right use of TQ helps. It's not my problem people aren't serious about BBQ as I am. Further than that, if we weren't technologically advanced as we are now, and someone didn't spill the beans, you would still be scoring brisket with a pretty smoke ring high. Hell, this one was cooked in the oven!
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And in just sayin BRO that if your a judge and your marking down scores on something your told not to judge on in the first place, I'm glad I don't compete in your sanctioning body. Down here there is no appearance Because appearance makes no difference on how it tastes, makes no difference on how tender it is, makes no difference on the overall enjoyment of the meat being sampled by the judge.
 
I love the folks who say 'if you have to use sauce you are covering up bad Q' (and I consider many who say that to be friends). My response to them is 'why do you use salt and pepper then, or chile powder, or garlic powder, or smoke wood...just cook that meat straight up' And how is adding a vinegar mop not saucing and changing the meats flavor?

If I am going to judge a piece of meat, or a box, or a plate of food, I am going to take a look to see if it is appetizing, and if there is a smoke ring, or not, it all comes into play if the food looks good. For me, I don't need to see a smoke ring for a piece of meat to look good, but, there has to be something. I might well judge down for a piece of meat with a large smoke ring, not because of the ring, but, because overall, it just doesn't do it for me.
 
Ugh...

Saying you cook in a bunch of unsanctioned comps and then talking about how serious you are is quite the dichotomy, no?

And I'll ask again, if appearance has nothing to do with the three items you quoted, WHY use Tender Quick on a hot and fast cook?

You've already answered the question, here: If you put a thick coat of rub on, you will get a minuscule smoke ring when cooking H&F.

SO...you are worried about the appearance.

You can't pass judgement on a sanctioning body or how it cooks or judges if you don't cook it. That's my .02. My guess is your mileage is going to vary.
 
Your serious about BBQ and most of ur cooks are unsanctioned?...

And for the others....don't judge all Texas cooks by the same standard.

And Jmoney Texas events do include appearance. While it is combined and not a separate score taste judges are still instructed to include it.....oops that's in sanctioned events with serious cooks.

And one more thing.....TQ is not against the rules. However serious cooks don't need to use it.....just sayin
 
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