KCBS Next Steps/Goals/Focus ?!?!?!?

JD McGee said:

I'd like to see more meat provided competitions ala King of the Smoker format. All teams provided the same quality of meat via a random draw. No SRF Gold or A9 brisket...no Duroc pork...just simple commodity choice meats. Let the skill of the Pitmasters determine who's the best...

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Why no SRF or Duroc pork? I happen to cook Duroc pork from Compart Family Farms. Why are you targeting their product? They are a family full of great people who have contributed a lot to competition BBQ. If you think killing off sales opportunities for a family farm in Minnesota is the fix to competition BBQ then I feel bad for you. Same with SRF, they've dumped tons of money into our "sport".



Here's an idea, shut up and cook. 2 weeks ago, the comp I competed at had a first place pork from a team I know cooks Tyson butts from walmart. They ran my pork process. I taught them how to cook pork. This week I won pork. You people act like it's all the meat and not any of the skill of the cook. Clark, Darren, Tim, Brad, Blane, Matt walker will all whip your ass with a choice brisket from walmart. And many of those guys already cook commodity pork.

tduffy said:

Why no SRF or Duroc pork? I happen to cook Duroc pork from Compart Family Farms. Why are you targeting their product? They are a family full of great people who have contributed a lot to competition BBQ. If you think killing off sales opportunities for a family farm in Minnesota is the fix to competition BBQ then I feel bad for you. Same with SRF, they've dumped tons of money into our "sport".



Here's an idea, shut up and cook. 2 weeks ago, the comp I competed at had a first place pork from a team I know cooks Tyson butts from walmart. They ran my pork process. I taught them how to cook pork. This week I won pork. You people act like it's all the meat and not any of the skill of the cook. Clark, Darren, Tim, Brad, Blane, Matt walker will all whip your ass with a choice brisket from walmart. And many of those guys already cook commodity pork.

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I don't think JD was suggesting that ALL contests would be meat supplied events. Just that he would like to see a few more of them. I don't think that would sink SRF or Compart Farms. And JD does cook - quite well. He took 2nd in pork last weekend, not using Compart pork, because we cannot get Compart pork in the northwest unless you have an in with a food service wholesaler or are willing to pay about $100 per butt to have it shipped here.
When you say "You people act like it's all the meat and not any of the skill of the cook," that is precisely what JD was suggesting, let the skill of the cook be shown by everyone cooking the same quality of meat.

Didn't King of the Smoker use SRF briskets? And Smithfield pork, which the pork team of the year last year happens to use, and you can buy at Walmart?

Not everyone gets the same quality of meat at the contests where it is provided. How much extra will organizers have to buy to ensure everyone get a brisket of the exact same quality. Not to mention beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so what is a perfect brisket to one team may be crap for another. What are the parameters for teams getting to pick new meat? What if the ribs don't have any shiners but don't have the marbling I look for and other teams have great marbling? Do I get to pick new ones? This just creates a whole new can of worms and new excuses.

didisea said:

I don't think JD was suggesting that ALL contests would be meat supplied events. Just that he would like to see a few more of them. I don't think that would sink SRF or Compart Farms. And JD does cook - quite well. He took 2nd in pork last weekend, not using Compart pork, because we cannot get Compart pork in the northwest unless you have an in with a food service wholesaler or are willing to pay about $100 per butt to have it shipped here.
When you say "You people act like it's all the meat and not any of the skill of the cook," that is precisely what JD was suggesting, let the skill of the cook be shown by everyone cooking the same quality of meat.

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Thanks....I just about opened my mouth and suggested that JD has more GC's then Travis has pork wins....:icon_blush:

As a "lower-third" quality cook who has cooked multiple Guinea Pig events, what I enjoy the most is my perception that I have a chance against the top teams based on the quantity of meat we are allowed to cook more than the quality of the meat.


When we are limited to 1 brisket, 2 butts, 3 racks of ribs and 9 thighs, I know that I need to cook each to the best of my ability, as there isn't enough additional product to use as a safety net.



How would teams feel about an event that permits everyone to bring their own meat, but limits the quantities they can cook (exemption for teams doing PC)? This possible scenario would still accomplish a semi-leveling of the playing field for the teams who don't have the money or cooking space to choose from 6+ racks of ribs or multiple briskets, and also provide an incentive for teams to PC (as they would be permitted to cook additional meat, as they need to have extra for sampling)?


Undoubtedly there are flaws in this idea, but it could be a concept which has some potential for expanding upon ...

DUBBAGA said:

As a "lower-third" quality cook who has cooked multiple Guinea Pig events, what I enjoy the most is my perception that I have a chance against the top teams based on the quantity of meat we are allowed to cook more than the quality of the meat.


When we are limited to 1 brisket, 2 butts, 3 racks of ribs and 9 thighs, I know that I need to cook each to the best of my ability, as there isn't enough additional product to use as a safety net.



How would teams feel about an event that permits everyone to bring their own meat, but limits the quantities they can cook (exemption for teams doing PC)? This possible scenario would still accomplish a semi-leveling of the playing field for the teams who don't have the money or cooking space to choose from 6+ racks of ribs or multiple briskets, and also provide an incentive for teams to PC (as they would be permitted to cook additional meat, as they need to have extra for sampling)?


Undoubtedly there are flaws in this idea, but it could be a concept which has some potential for expanding upon ...

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I believe it to be the opposite. I don't think top teams are cooking tons of meat as they know they don't need to and I find that inexperienced teams do thinking they can make up for a poor cook.

I don't see anything wrong with 16/4/3/1 which in many polls seems to be the average.

Bottom line is more teams are cooking better due to the information out there and the classes so widely available. That is mixing up the results among more team and now everyone says the system is broken.

DUBBAGA said:

As a "lower-third" quality cook who has cooked multiple Guinea Pig events, what I enjoy the most is my perception that I have a chance against the top teams based on the quantity of meat we are allowed to cook more than the quality of the meat.


When we are limited to 1 brisket, 2 butts, 3 racks of ribs and 9 thighs, I know that I need to cook each to the best of my ability, as there isn't enough additional product to use as a safety net.



How would teams feel about an event that permits everyone to bring their own meat, but limits the quantities they can cook (exemption for teams doing PC)? This possible scenario would still accomplish a semi-leveling of the playing field for the teams who don't have the money or cooking space to choose from 6+ racks of ribs or multiple briskets, and also provide an incentive for teams to PC (as they would be permitted to cook additional meat, as they need to have extra for sampling)?

Undoubtedly there are flaws in this idea, but it could be a concept which has some potential for expanding upon ...

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Its called the Ironman. Its an awesome contest. Wish we could have cooked this one this year. Except its 1 brisket, 1 pork butt, 1 rack of ribs, and 7 pieces of chicken.
Look up Mason Dixon BBQ. Its a great store and a great contest.
My lollipops did pretty good too when we cooked them. Perdue chicken too.

I liked the format. The best teams still came out on top but it did make it more exciting.

Here’s a stupid idea....if it’s good to use judge scoring average in an effort to even the field, how about use a handicap scoring system for cooks? If I average 15pts behind GC, I get 15pts added to my score. That would really even things out.

Just kidding.....

Pappy Q said:

Here’s a stupid idea....if it’s good to use judge scoring average in an effort to even the field, how about use a handicap scoring system for cooks? If I average 15pts behind GC, I get 15pts added to my score. That would really even things out.

Just kidding.....

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Probably the only way to stop the bitching.

It all boils down to the fact that people want to compete against and beat the best, but instead of putting in the time, effort and, yes, money to raise their game up to the level necessary, they want to complain and impose restrictions to bring the competition down to their level.

I honestly think divisions are the answer. The true “pro” circuit might only have a handful of high profile events and teams, while smaller profile local events can cater to teams that don’t have the time and budget to compete on a large scale. We could still come up with ways to involve the “pro” teams at these events. Maybe by implementing restrictions on numbers they can cook, proteins, or whatever.

It isn’t Rocket Surgery. Other “sports” have been here before. Find a model to emulate and get busy. I always see golf and racing as the closest structure wise to comp BBQ. For instance, in racing, the top level guys can compete at a lower level, but the equipment is limited and they don’t get points.

gettinbasted said:

I honestly think divisions are the answer. The true “pro” circuit might only have a handful of high profile events and teams, while smaller profile local events can cater to teams that don’t have the time and budget to compete on a large scale. We could still come up with ways to involve the “pro” teams at these events. Maybe by implementing restrictions on numbers they can cook, proteins, or whatever.

It isn’t Rocket Surgery. Other “sports” have been here before. Find a model to emulate and get busy. I always see golf and racing as the closest structure wise to comp BBQ. For instance, in racing, the top level guys can compete at a lower level, but the equipment is limited and they don’t get points.

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You have mentioned this a few times and I would be interested in hearing how you would propose it work. In your system would the American Royal invitational and The Jack no longer be considered "world championships" and would their be a path to getting there similar to how the US Open works in golf? The reason I ask about these two are that I really don't care about KCBS points but I do want to compete in The Royal and The Jack at some point. I think many others are in the same position I am in.

For me the reasons I compete are:
1) Because I enjoy it and I want to compete against the best (at least the best in California).
2) To (hopefully) be able to cook The Jack and The American Royal.
3) California BBQ Association Team of the Year. We only count the top 5 scores rather than top 10 . I always assume you have to, at a minimum, do 2.5x the number events counted to realistically have a chance at Team of the Year and 12 events is more realistic form me than 25.

And you are correct, to do anything other than #1 I need to cook a lot more but I don't think I will be able to do that until my kids go to college.


I also want to say that you may be correct, this may be the best path forward for KCBS and/or professional BBQ. I think it is tough for people like me and others on this forum because we are the ones that get downsized out of the pro ranks and nobody has ever thought it was a great idea to downsize themselves out of anything.

Follow me here because I'm just spit balling.

16-20 National BBQ League Events. These are high prize purse, high entry fee (for opens), high profile events around the globe with no limits. I could see a combination of invitational and open events. Everyone can cook 2 of these events in a year without giving up their "amateur" status. As soon as you take the plunge and elect to cook 3 or more, you are now a pro subject to the restrictions when competing in "local" events. This level will have it's own points chase, sponsorships that can pay entry fees, etc. All the trappings of big money BBQ.

Normal KCBS events would be considered "locals". This would be the main KCBS points chase. They could be 4 meat events, one meat events, organizer provided meat events, whatever. "Pro" teams can compete, but we can place restrictions on them of some sort. Maybe they pay a higher entry for a KCBS provided cooler of meat, maybe there is a handicap (see Pappy???), maybe you limit the number of "locals" each pro team can do, whatever. Either way, "pro" teams will not receive points for these local events. Add a big money Sam'sesque tour that caters to the lower level and we might be on to something.

Go easy on me. It's just a start.

egorham said:

You have mentioned this a few times and I would be interested in hearing how you would propose it work. In your system would the American Royal invitational and The Jack no longer be considered "world championships" and would their be a path to getting there similar to how the US Open works in golf? The reason I ask about these two are that I really don't care about KCBS points but I do want to compete in The Royal and The Jack at some point. I think many others are in the same position I am in.

For me the reasons I compete are:
1) Because I enjoy it and I want to compete against the best (at least the best in California).
2) To (hopefully) be able to cook The Jack and The American Royal.
3) California BBQ Association Team of the Year. We only count the top 5 scores rather than top 10 . I always assume you have to, at a minimum, do 2.5x the number events counted to realistically have a chance at Team of the Year and 12 events is more realistic form me than 25.

And you are correct, to do anything other than #1 I need to cook a lot more but I don't think I will be able to do that until my kids go to college.


I also want to say that you may be correct, this may be the best path forward for KCBS and/or professional BBQ. I think it is tough for people like me and others on this forum because we are the ones that get downsized out of the pro ranks and nobody has ever thought it was a great idea to downsize themselves out of anything.

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Big invitationals and other similar events like the open can remain as is. They are outside of the points chase anyway (except for exemptions, which could go away). I'd like to see these remain World Championships and as is along with Memphis and Houston (and the most important, undisputed, World Championship of World Championships, the King of the Smoker. Bring it back Sterling).

gettinbasted said:

(and the most important, undisputed, World Championship of World Championships, the King of the Smoker. Bring it back Sterling).

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If you can get Sterling on board with this it may be the first thing on the forum everyone agrees with.

I would be fine with the system you outlined as well. I would be worried that locals would have a tough time getting sponsors but I don't see how it would change much for the rest of us, but I am often wrong about things so there is probably something I am missing.

You will have to make sure at least one of your top events (outside of KOS) is in California, the state with the biggest population should have at least one of the majors!

egorham said:

If you can get Sterling on board with this it may be the first thing on the forum everyone agrees with.

I would be fine with the system you outlined as well. I would be worried that locals would have a tough time getting sponsors but I don't see how it would change much for the rest of us, but I am often wrong about things so there is probably something I am missing.

You will have to make sure at least one of your top events (outside of KOS) is in California, the state with the biggest population should have at least one of the majors!

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You probably don’t market them as “pro” and “amateur”. Maybe it’s “unlimited series”, “Masters series” and “competitors series”. I don’t think the sponsorship prospects/marketing will change all that much. Big names will be at both types of events. If anything they will increase with increased visibility and marketing of competition bbq via the unlimited series.

I think you need a way to move down a division too. Make your status based on the current and prior years. Us aging veterans need a soft landing somewhere.

didisea said:

I don't think JD was suggesting that ALL contests would be meat supplied events. Just that he would like to see a few more of them. I don't think that would sink SRF or Compart Farms. And JD does cook - quite well. He took 2nd in pork last weekend, not using Compart pork, because we cannot get Compart pork in the northwest unless you have an in with a food service wholesaler or are willing to pay about $100 per butt to have it shipped here.
When you say "You people act like it's all the meat and not any of the skill of the cook," that is precisely what JD was suggesting, let the skill of the cook be shown by everyone cooking the same quality of meat.

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More of them??? Teams didn’t support the ones that attempted it.

Burnt at Both Endz said:

Thanks....I just about opened my mouth and suggested that JD has more GC's then Travis has pork wins....:icon_blush:

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So?
I guess with my less wins than him I can still realize that This whole concept of having teams draw for coolers of provided meat does not make it fair or level the playing field. Just because it’s the same brand doesn’t mean it will all be the same quality.

My only thing is entrance fees are too high at alot of comps. In hindsight I probably jumped into the pro side to early. I feel funny to compete in backyard events so I don't.
I wish I had more oppurtunity to cook but entrance fees limit that because of my financial situation. I really have zero problem with any big team buying any meat they want or as much meat as they want.
Really divisions might not be bad if it allowed for an in between amateur and true professionals. Something with lower entrance fees and a smaller prize pool. To allow cooks like myself to develop.
Lately, I have been thinking about if I should continue to pursue bbq competition. I go back and forth. I have 2 kids one of which is likely disabled. I have work obligations and limited time off.
I took this year off from comp bbq for family health problems with my dad and my daughter.
I may be back next year or I may just hang it up.

A semi pro division with lower fees and maybe having saturday sunday comps would allow me the time and money to compete and develop. Honestly, I don't see it happening.

I have considered trying to start a new team to help reduce costs and maybe not be in the head cook role. That way I can show up later and not miss work. I have tried to find team mates in the past but it hasn't happened.

I suppose it would help if kcbs was actively setting up social events to help smaller teams maybe combine into larger more competitive teams. That would reduce costs for smaller teams and allow them to be more competitive. Without negatively impacting better or larger teams.
Just some thoughts.

To be clear I haven't decided yet if I am done but lately as much as I love competition bbq with everything going on and the high cost and high level of commitment required the possibility of being done is on the table.

Brad for BOD 2020