Help From The Pitmasters - Compare / Contrast Vertical vs Horizontal?

Joe Bryant

Joe Bryant

Knows what a fatty is.
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First off - great board you folks have here. Glad I found it.

I've cooked for the last 5 years of so with an offset Oklahoma Joe's. Something similar to this http://www.hawgeyesbbq.com/20rdlg.jpg I like it a lot and it's worked well. Mainly pork shoulder burning hickory.

But I'm looking to go with a mobile rig that has a much larger capacity. I'd like to be able to feed up to 300 folks or so.

The question I have is can you folks with experience using both vertical and horizontal smokers offer some insights into how they compare and contrast?

It seems to me that you can max out the cooking space a bit more with a vertical style. Along the lines of something like this http://www.bbqpits.com/commercial_indoor_outdoor_smokers/30x30_upright.htm (I hope the links are ok for illustration. If not I'll remove)

But I know the horizontal style (like I have now) seems awfully popular. http://www.bbqpits.com/mobile_cookoff_and_catering_rigs/30x8_mobile.htm

And then I know the rigs combining both styles are popular like this http://www.bbqpits.com/mobile_cookoff_and_catering_rigs/2x6_w_uprt.htm

I know there are lots of ways to skin a cat. But I was looking for some feedback from the folks here with experience on the different styles.

What do you like or dislike about the different styles?

Thanks for the insights.

J
 
I wise man once said that vertical smokers observe the laws of physics better than horizontal smokers.
 
I have a Lang 60 that I love cooking on.... and have heard nothing but great things about (http://www.pigroast.com/model60deluxe.htm) If you are looking for something larger you could always go with the twin 84 (http://www.pigroast.com/model84t.htm) and I think you can even get a twin 104 if you really need the space!!!!

The thing I love about the Lang is that it's a reverse flow...
 
With a horizontal you can have it tuned to even the temps fairly closely across the horizontal. With a vertical the heat is more even.

A combination like the Klose you looked at is the best of both worlds. The vertical will run a little cooler, but is great for holding meat and sides. Or if you need the extra capacity you can move meat from the vertical to the horizontal as space becomes available.

If you want an education, and be able to quikly figure out what your needs are give Dave Klose a call. The man is a walking fountain of knowledge that he doesn't mind sharing.
 
Divemaster said:
I have a Lang 60 that I love cooking on.... and have heard nothing but great things about (http://www.pigroast.com/model60deluxe.htm) If you are looking for something larger you could always go with the twin 84 (http://www.pigroast.com/model84t.htm) and I think you can even get a twin 104 if you really need the space!!!!

The thing I love about the Lang is that it's a reverse flow...
Click to expand...


Hi Jeff,

Thanks for the info. I'm just learning about reverse flow. Can you share your thoughts there on how you like it compared to the normal style with the chimney on the end opposite the firebox and using tuning plates?

Thanks.

J
 
Joe Bryant said:
Hi Jeff,

Thanks for the info. I'm just learning about reverse flow. Can you share your thoughts there on how you like it compared to the normal style with the chimney on the end opposite the firebox and using tuning plates?

Thanks.

J
Click to expand...
It's really the best of both worlds...

The way the smoker is built is that there is a solid steal plate that runs the length of the horz. smoker from the fire box to just short (about 3-4 inches) of the far end. This way the heat is spread and there are no real hot spots while the smoke travels all the way under the plate and then comes back over the plate to the chimney surounding the meat.

I've found that the it is a far more even cook (I loose maybe 15 - 20 degrees from the fire box to the far end), and this may just be in my mind, but I feel like I have a better control on not just the heat, but also the smoke flavor.

With a 'Standard' horizontal smoker the end next to the fire box is normally a lot hotter and you have to move and or flip the meat to keep the cook even....
 
You may want to think about doing something fast, I got the most recent Klose newsletter stating that he is getting ready to raise his prices Substantially. Primarily because of the rate at which steel is rising...
 
I cooked on a homemade reverse flow once... that sucker cooked at 245 on the far side and 235 on the firebox side for 4 hours WITHOUT touching the woodbox. It took a heck of long time to get it up to temp, but once there, it was the best cooking machine I've ever cooked with outside. I love my offset, but half the fun was learning how to control it, could use some tuning plates on mine... one of these days when I am full time employed again.
 
Jorge said:
If you want an education, and be able to quikly figure out what your needs are give Dave Klose a call. The man is a walking fountain of knowledge that he doesn't mind sharing.
Click to expand...

I don't want to cause any issues, but I would not recommend any one try to give Dave Klose a call. I called Klose Pits several times when I was pit shopping and never once got to speak to the man. One time I asked Monty if I could talk to Dave, and he said Dave was never there. He was always "out fishing." Talking to Monty and the other woman was equally as painful, cause I felt like I was getting a big heaping of marketing with every question. I have nothing to say about the quality of Klose products, but I would recommend seeking an education from sources other than that company.

YMMV,

dmp
 
My mileage varied substantially. While he does like to fish, he went out of his way to give me all the info I wanted.. including fishing;). I believe the woman, was probably his sister and she was helpful when I called as well...including going out on the lot with a tape measure to check the height of a pit to see if I could store it where I wanted to.
 
I've never tried to talk with Dave. I have spoken with Ben (Lang) and he was always more than helpful. (But that's coming from some one that has a Lang)

By the way Joe, swing on over to the Cattle Call and intoduce yourself... Oops.... Never mind....
 
Divemaster said:
I've never tried to talk with Dave. I have spoken with Ben (Lang) and he was always more than helpful. (But that's coming from some one that has a Lang)
Click to expand...


I've heard the same thing from quite a few people, but haven't ever spoken to him myself. I don't think you could go wrong talking to either gentleman.
 
Jorge said:
My mileage varied substantially.
Click to expand...

I'm glad that you had a good experience. I've read where other people have had similar experiences. Like I said, I don't want to cause a problem, but every time I read a positive review of Klose and a suggestion to call, I did, and every time I was dissapointed by the lack of communication and marketing hype. I just thought I owed it to the world to share that info. No one was ever rude to me I guess, I just didn't like the communications. I could give a few specific examples, but besides being told that Dave is never there, I'm trying to avoid that.

dmp
 
To get this back on track a little bit, I'm sorta like the OP. I have an older NBSS horizontal offset. Cooked on it for years and liked it, but wanted something bigger/better. I looked at various horizontal cookers, but just never really waned one. To me, it was all about vertical cookers. A lot of ppl like the BYC and similar models like the ones you pointed out, Horizontal + Vertical, but one, they were all too expensive for me, and two, there is supposedly like a 100 degree drop from the horizontal to vertical portions. I wish the best of luck to those who have them, it just wasn't what I decided was right for me.

I ended up buying a vertical from Lonestar, and love it. I'm still getting used to it, but it cooks some good Q. If you look at all the newer "gimmick" BBQ cookers, you'll see that they are almost all vertical or chest style. I think that says something. Cost and space was also an issue. My pit has more space than a BYC, yet cost less, and I think the space is more usable. Prices are always changing among vendors, so compare apples to apples yourself, but that's just one example.

On the topic of communication, the guys at Lonestar were great! The owner, Tom, was very easy to reach in phone and eMail, and I was given Steve Bateman's personal cell phone to call him with any questions or comments. Completely throughout the pit building process, I was sent updates and pictures. Overall, a great pit, for a great price, and great communication. Another group that I talked to a few times but didn't go with was Ritch at Gator Pits. I've heard nothing but good stuff about them, and Ritch was always very helpful and friendly with the pit education.

So there it is. I like uprights, and for my money, you can't go wrong getting a wide upright and skipping the horizontal. The only question then is to decide whether you want a more traditional "Houston" pit, or a modern Stump/SW/BW/FEC/Whatever that's insulated.

dmp
 
dmprantz said:
To get this back on track a little bit, I'm sorta like the OP. I have an older NBSS horizontal offset. Cooked on it for years and liked it, but wanted something bigger/better. I looked at various horizontal cookers, but just never really waned one. To me, it was all about vertical cookers. A lot of ppl like the BYC and similar models like the ones you pointed out, Horizontal + Vertical, but one, they were all too expensive for me, and two, there is supposedly like a 100 degree drop from the horizontal to vertical portions. I wish the best of luck to those who have them, it just wasn't what I decided was right for me.

I ended up buying a vertical from Lonestar, and love it. I'm still getting used to it, but it cooks some good Q. If you look at all the newer "gimmick" BBQ cookers, you'll see that they are almost all vertical or chest style. I think that says something. Cost and space was also an issue. My pit has more space than a BYC, yet cost less, and I think the space is more usable. Prices are always changing among vendors, so compare apples to apples yourself, but that's just one example.

On the topic of communication, the guys at Lonestar were great! The owner, Tom, was very easy to reach in phone and eMail, and I was given Steve Bateman's personal cell phone to call him with any questions or comments. Completely throughout the pit building process, I was sent updates and pictures. Overall, a great pit, for a great price, and great communication. Another group that I talked to a few times but didn't go with was Ritch at Gator Pits. I've heard nothing but good stuff about them, and Ritch was always very helpful and friendly with the pit education.

So there it is. I like uprights, and for my money, you can't go wrong getting a wide upright and skipping the horizontal. The only question then is to decide whether you want a more traditional "Houston" pit, or a modern Stump/SW/BW/FEC/Whatever that's insulated.

dmp
Click to expand...


Thanks dmp. Do you have a link to your pit? Are these the guys http://www.lonestarcustompits.com/

Which one did you go with? Thanks for the insights.

J
 
Yeah, those are the guys. Most every pit they do is custom really, so there is no single one pit that they sell that I have. On their front page though, you''ll see that they list a 24x36 horizontal with 24x24 upright. Mine is a 24x33 upright by itself. Like I mentioned, I think it's the most economical use of space.

I don't have a page for my pit, but maybe The Beast does deserve its own mySpace page or something. In the mean time, here is a thread I started about the pit to introduce it:

http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39122&highlight=the+beast

Poobah had a similar, but slightly smaller, pit built at one point as a demo. He called it MOAB. Presuming he still has it, or kept it for a while, he may have some good insight as to how it works in regards to the other pits he has. I think in the IP you mentioned that you wanted to cook for about 300 people? With the four trays that I have, I could almost certainly get enough butt in there for 275-325 people. If I purchase a fifth tray, no problem. There are some issues to discuss there, but 300 ppl with PP, no problem. Well over 100 ppl with Brisket too.

dmp
 
Thanks dmp. That's a similar look to the Klose I had mentioned http://www.bbqpits.com/commercial_indoor_outdoor_smokers/30x30_upright.htm

It does seem to make sense from a max the space angle.

Two quick questions if you don't mind.

#1. How is the temp variance from top rack to lowest rack?

#2. Price wise, how did it compare to the Klose? (hope that's not out of bounds to ask here. If it is, just send me a PM if you'd like)

J
 
dmprantz said:
On the topic of communication, the guys at Lonestar were great! The owner, Tom, was very easy to reach in phone and eMail, and I was given Steve Bateman's personal cell phone to call him with any questions or comments. Completely throughout the pit building process, I was sent updates and pictures. Overall, a great pit, for a great price, and great communication.
dmp
Click to expand...

I couldn't agree more with these comments. Great folks to work with and hope to be picking up our pit around mid May. Here is a link to some build pictures of the pit in progress: http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?p=607128#post607128
 
Yes, it is somewhat similar. The Klose is 30x30x72, while mine is 24x33x48 (36" cook-space). The Klose is obviously much larger, and much more expensive. Klose had a 24x24 upright much more similar in size to mine, as did Ritch at Gator. Of course, I'm sure Gator and Lonestar (and JJ and PCC, and whoever else) each would build a 30x30x72 if you asked them and paid their price.

I do notice a heat variance between top and bottom, and that's something I've been working on. As you can see, I have two termometers, and they would both read the same thing all the way up to about 200 deg, and then the bottom one would start to read about 40-50 deg hotter. I'm not sure yet if that was do to the size of the pit or the termometers being off. I did a boil test with the two thermometers, and the one on bottom consistently read 5 deg hotter than the one on top all the way up to 212. I have since reversed them, and my frist cook after that is tonight/tomorow. If I have time, I plan to do a biscuit test tomorow morning as well. Point is, I'm not sure if it's the pit or the termometers, and even if it is the pit, I doubt it's really 50 deg. Also, warmer weather would help, and I'm planning to get a radiant barrier.

One thing here is that my pit does have a single tuning plate, and I am still playing with how to set it up. I toyed with having the exhausts put on the same side as the firebox for more of a reverse flow, but decided not to...I'm rethinking that.

I don't mind discussing relative prices. Klose and Gator are both very, very proud of their pits. They charge a hefty price for them. One of the big reasons why I chose Lonestar over some one else, who seemed to have just as good service, was price. Back when Steve was Bates Pitts, he was less expensive than the others, and now that he is with Lonestar, I think they are the new kid on the block and trying to get their new name out there. Regardless of the reason, they are less expensive. Exactly how much less expensive one of those things you should research yourself, but consider this:

Lonestar currently has a 20x36 horizontal listed on their front page. Look at a Klose's 20x36 Pipe Smoker back yard pit to see if their is a price difference. Also consider upgrades and how much each one charges for them, or even if they both require money for the same upgrades (They don't). The truth is though that any of them will build just about anything you want, unless they think it will some how give them a bad name (hurt you or perform poorly). Keeping that in mind, design what you want first, get price quotes second, and then compromise and get something cheaper third. That's what I did:)

dmp
 
dmprantz said:
Yes, it is somewhat similar. The Klose is 30x30x72, while mine is 24x33x48 (36" cook-space). The Klose is obviously much larger, and much more expensive. Klose had a 24x24 upright much more similar in size to mine, as did Ritch at Gator. Of course, I'm sure Gator and Lonestar (and JJ and PCC, and whoever else) each would build a 30x30x72 if you asked them and paid their price.

I do notice a heat variance between top and bottom, and that's something I've been working on. As you can see, I have two termometers, and they would both read the same thing all the way up to about 200 deg, and then the bottom one would start to read about 40-50 deg hotter. I'm not sure yet if that was do to the size of the pit or the termometers being off. I did a boil test with the two thermometers, and the one on bottom consistently read 5 deg hotter than the one on top all the way up to 212. I have since reversed them, and my frist cook after that is tonight/tomorow. If I have time, I plan to do a biscuit test tomorow morning as well. Point is, I'm not sure if it's the pit or the termometers, and even if it is the pit, I doubt it's really 50 deg. Also, warmer weather would help, and I'm planning to get a radiant barrier.

One thing here is that my pit does have a single tuning plate, and I am still playing with how to set it up. I toyed with having the exhausts put on the same side as the firebox for more of a reverse flow, but decided not to...I'm rethinking that.

I don't mind discussing relative prices. Klose and Gator are both very, very proud of their pits. They charge a hefty price for them. One of the big reasons why I chose Lonestar over some one else, who seemed to have just as good service, was price. Back when Steve was Bates Pitts, he was less expensive than the others, and now that he is with Lonestar, I think they are the new kid on the block and trying to get their new name out there. Regardless of the reason, they are less expensive. Exactly how much less expensive one of those things you should research yourself, but consider this:

Lonestar currently has a 20x36 horizontal listed on their front page. Look at a Klose's 20x36 Pipe Smoker back yard pit to see if their is a price difference. Also consider upgrades and how much each one charges for them, or even if they both require money for the same upgrades (They don't). The truth is though that any of them will build just about anything you want, unless they think it will some how give them a bad name (hurt you or perform poorly). Keeping that in mind, design what you want first, get price quotes second, and then compromise and get something cheaper third. That's what I did:)

dmp
Click to expand...


Thanks a lot for the insights. Very helpful.

J
 
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