Interesting article on competition que...

Podge said:

I think there can be reward for individuality. As long as it flavor fits with the definition of American BBQ, therefore, individuality can only go so far.. I try to do that all the time. I don't want to be the same as everyone else. So far, that line of thinking has worked out for me.

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True but what I am thinking of is "individuality" being added as a 4th scoring criteria. Of course it would need to be weighted below the other three in value, but I think it would go a long way towards fixing the problem. Lets face it. It woyld be the least important category, but I doubt anyone would want to leave those potential points on the table.

But like I said. It ain't gonna happen.

Although I don't think restaurant 'que & competition 'que are mutually exclusive, there isn't a lot of common ground. Many competitors who want to get into the restaurant business will parlay their awards into some sort of pedigree, like "award winning...", "championship...", etc., while people who start out in restaurants don't usually start competing, except for maybe Chris Lilly. If anything, I see more competitors opening BBQ places than the other way around.

Competition cooks generally say that if they had a restaurant, they would have to charge exorbitant prices to produce competition 'que and they say they would have a hard time repeating that process consistently on a daily basis.

I think that restaurant 'que tends to focus more on simplifying the process to insure consistency, focusing more on cooking than seasoning, injecting, etc. as competitors focus on. One sure way to get people to dislike restaurant 'que is for it to be amazing one day, and lousy the next time you visit. Of course, patrons who visit other BBQ places between visits can alter their perception of what good BBQ tastes like, and upon their return, the original place's 'que won't be as good as they remembered.

This is not to say that restaurants can't be successful competitors, and competitors can be successful restauranteurs, but there isn't generally much overlap between the two. Regardless of the homogenization or dissonance that exists within BBQ, I don't believe that there will be much crossover until competition 'que begins winning with restaurant 'que. I don't see that happening either.

Q-Dat said:

True but what I am thinking of is "individuality" being added as a 4th scoring criteria. Of course it would need to be weighted below the other three in value, but I think it would go a long way towards fixing the problem. Lets face it. It woyld be the least important category, but I doubt anyone would want to leave those potential points on the table.

But like I said. It ain't gonna happen.

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Actually, and especially with seasoned judges, individuality is appreciated, even desired and rewarded. That said, it still has to taste good and still has to taste like something that harkens the notion of BBQ.

A guy who I happen to highly respect and is a brethren went out and created a rub and sauce combination that went fairly heavily down the rasberry trail. I'll say this; rasberries are very tart; VERY. Tart, like salt, or cayenne heat, etc. isn't everyones cup of tea. He was trounced in the scoreing, and came away with "uniqueness is punished". I would suggest that they didnt punish the uniqueness, but punished the tart.

I think that was half of Pat's point about all the briskets tasting like beef boulion. "Winners" often (usually?) inject or otherwise cook with a salty beef based liquid because it's what wins, and winning techniques are copied. The other, unspoken part of his comments are that teams look for a lot of flavour in one bite, wether that flavour is beef, salt, or sugar. He doesn't think it's good BBQ, but maybe he just doesn't understand KCBS BBQ?

The other, point is of course that The Jack, that pinnacle of competition, putting the luckiest and best of the best against each other uses judges who don't know much about judging. People who are celebrities and have been a CBJ for less than 24 hours. Sure the comments can (and will) be made that "good BBQ is good BBQ," and several of the recent winners (iQue, Quau, Pig Skin) have been dominant teams, but I think it's a good point to remember. Just rambling thoughts I guess.

dmp

Lake Dogs said:

Actually, and especially with seasoned judges, individuality is appreciated, even desired and rewarded. That said, it still has to taste good and still has to taste like something that harkens the notion of BBQ.

A guy who I happen to highly respect and is a brethren went out and created a rub and sauce combination that went fairly heavily down the rasberry trail. I'll say this; rasberries are very tart; VERY. Tart, like salt, or cayenne heat, etc. isn't everyones cup of tea. He was trounced in the scoreing, and came away with "uniqueness is punished". I would suggest that they didnt punish the uniqueness, but punished the tart.

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Yes, it does of course still have to taste good, but I think KCBS judging classes are influencing the new judges notion of what good is supposed to taste like. Oh I know that they don't come right out and tell them what to like, but they do tell them that good BBQ should be "balanced". I am so sick of this idea that balanced flavors are necessarily good. Theres a big difference between BBQ that tastes great and BBQ that doesn't taste "offensive". What we actually have is mild flavors, bordering on bland that are being balanced by training wheels. In this case the training wheels are in the form of sugar or other sweetness because its the easy way to round out the sharp edges on some flavors without having to get very creative.

Balanced and good are not necessarily the same thing.

I don't happen to think BBQ, at any level or venue particularly rewards innovation. I get the chance to talk with CBJ's, cooks and aficionados of BBQ fairly often out here, along with restaurant owners, and the final thing I walk away with, is that there is a very narrow window for which BBQ can be good. People across a broad spectrum have an idea of what BBQ is, and if you vary from that, they get uncomfortable. There are differences by region, but, even there, the differences are really small. KCBS is one form of BBQ flavor, but, I don't think it varies all that much from other forms, it just pushes one or two profiles more.

Q-Dat said:

Yes, it does of course still have to taste good, but I think KCBS judging classes are influencing the new judges notion of what good is supposed to taste like. Oh I know that they don't come right out and tell them what to like, but they do tell them that good BBQ should be "balanced". I am so sick of this idea that balanced flavors are necessarily good. Theres a big difference between BBQ that tastes great and BBQ that doesn't taste "offensive". What we actually have is mild flavors, bordering on bland that are being balanced by training wheels. In this case the training wheels are in the form of sugar or other sweetness because its the easy way to round out the sharp edges on some flavors without having to get very creative.

Balanced and good are not necessarily the same thing.

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I haven't been to a KCBS judging class, but I would hope that they aren't telling them what it should or shouldn't taste like, or that it should be "balanced" or not. They may, and IMHO that would be wrong.

That said, it's different in giving advice to new competitors. Telling them to try not to **** off any one judge is one thing, but instructing judges as to what and how to score it, that's another matter altogether.

Kind of a side spin on this topic; some sanctioning bodies allow sauce presented on the side, and some of them allow multiple sauces. The last few times I competed in MBN I presented our main sauce and a second sauce on the side. The second sauce was a vinegar sauce that I'd never, ever, under any circumstance present it as just the one sauce, because not all judges like vinegar on their BBQ. But, some do. The ones that like it, tend to love it and it helps our scores IMHO. The ones that dont tend to like to drink our main sauce straight, and IMHO that too helps our scores. I also think presenting the sauce on the side helps because it allows the judge to choose how much sauce they think compliments the meat, and how much they prefer. After all, it's about appealing to those darned judges, isn't it?

Now, if only I could get 'em to have a shot of tequila with me . . .

Smoke'n Ice said:

Actually, I used it to make a point. Remember the commercial for sauce and the tag line was "Made in New York City?, Git a Rope". The intent was to say that the sauce, I think Pace, was real downhome and others were just imitator wanabes.

It just illustrates that other factors, to include public preception, come into the equation of what makes good bbq for each person and region and could be as simple as "what is acceptable everywhere." While not being the best, it is the acceptable NORM.

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Yes. That is the commercial I thought of while reading this thread. It is a Pace Picante salsa commercial. Pace is a brand owned by Campbell's which is based in Camden, NJ. I always got a kick out of that.

Carey Bringle said:

I’ve seen it in the KCBS circuits, but I don’t see it in the MBM [Memphis] circuit. The MBM folks seem to have more laid-back party get-together kind of time, whereas the KCBS guys seem to be more me and my wife against the world, **** everybody else. Quiet time at 10 p.m. The first time I did a KCBS competition, they almost threw me out four times because I didn’t know what the hell quiet time was. I was like, "What do you mean quiet time in a barbecue competition? What kind of bull**** is that? It’s about staying up and having a good time. We’re getting our second keg delivered here."

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Rich Parker said:

This has got to be the furthest statement from the truth I have ever read about competition BBQ especially KCBS events that I have been to.

I have watched competitors give other competitors rubs, sauces, meat, injections, wood, charcoal, knives, park their trailer, make their boxes, change their tire, wake them up, start their fire, and fix their truck!

We have potlucks that rival most 5 star restaurants and share all of our food with our neighbors. :drama:

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If someone has to have quiet time explained four times.....:wacko:

At the end of the day its all BBQ. It may not be your Mammas, Your Daddy's or even your Granddaddy's but it is still BBQ. I have traveled from coast to coast in the US & Canada and eaten BBQ at over 150+ joints. Some of it was absolutely fantastic. Some of it was crap. Some was old school some was new school. Its still BBQ.
I have attended MIM multiples of times = tasted many entries that used so much cure it would knock your socks off - Its still BBQ.
I make KCBS over injected over sauced overly manipulated entries- Its still BBQ.
And in my own backyard I make what I like to eat simply seasoned food - Its still BBQ.

There is absolutely no reason to pigeon hole BBQ into one corner. Not ever. There are too many facets, styles and interpretations. Just eat what you like. Make what you like and compete how you like. Don't like what you are judging - don't judge. Been to a contest and treated like crap - don't go back. Don't like the atmosphere of a sanctioning body - don't participate. Seems pretty simple to me.
For me - It is much better to celebrate the differences..

Its all still BBQ.

CarolinaQue said:

Definitely the best statement/assessment so far IMO!!!

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someone is a suck-up! :caked:

Lake Dogs said:

I haven't been to a KCBS judging class, but I would hope that they aren't telling them what it should or shouldn't taste like, or that it should be "balanced" or not. They may, and IMHO that would be wrong.

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It took me a while to find it, but I knew I remembered hearing it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WPEtECibFk&feature=youtube_gdata_player

The instructor starts talking about taste at about 10:52 into the video. He stresses balance multiple times. Once again, balance is not necessary for great flavor. Certain meats can be outstanding if you lean one way or the other with one or more of the 4 basic tastes.

Don't hate the player, hate the game. (but I love the game!)

Podge said:

Don't hate the player, hate the game. (but I love the game!)

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I recall neither Mr. Martin nor Mr. Bringel making personal attacks against any single person. Just KCBS competition BBQ, which is the game. The personal attacks were here in the Brethren. For some reason, that just doesn't surprise me.

dmp

CarolinaQue said:

But it's DivaQ...duh!!!

Don't be jealous...you're still my dog...Dog!!:mrgreen:

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And yes, hopefully everyone knows I was joking, and what DivaQ wrote probably did say it all. It's all BBQ, one way or another. What I like/prefer may not be what you like/prefer, but it's still BBQ.

I do think it's a shame at what Q-Dat showed. No one should be instructed as to what it should, or shouldn't for that matter, taste like. They should be instructed that it's not a sauce contest, and that they should be judging the taste of the meat, and how the seasonings/spices/sauces used enhance and compliment the meat flavor, not mask it.

Podge said:

Don't hate the player, hate the game. (but I love the game!)

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dmprantz said:

I recall neither Mr. Martin nor Mr. Bringel making personal attacks against any single person. Just KCBS competition BBQ, which is the game. The personal attacks were here in the Brethren. For some reason, that just doesn't surprise me.

dmp

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:arrow:

Carey Bringle: ...the KCBS guys seem to be more me and my wife against the world, **** everybody else.

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Certainly sounds like he's talking about the players here. Was that supposed to be a compliment? Certainly didn't seem like one. :roll:

Please re-read what I said. It shouldn't be too hard since it was quoted. Which single person did Carey personally attack? You have a name? A physical description of the guy? Oh yeah, he said "KCBS," like I thought he did. The way I read it, he talked about the environment at KCBS events. The game that the body puts on. I doubt every one will agree, especially those who love that game, but I'll repeat, I don't see where he said anything bad about any specific person. At least a couple here have made negative comments specifically about him.

dmp