issues with garnish

K

kcbswtf

Guest
Why have garnish? Does anyone think it is possible to cheat with garnish? example: if i were to talk to say 15 cbj's offer them cold hard cash to judge my box and give it 9's across the board. I know you are thinking that won't affect anything...but if I tell those 15 judges that my boxes will have green leaf as a base and then i will bunch parsley in top right and bottom left. If my boxes crosses any of those judges then I could cheat theoretically.

Why not have no garnish and a exact amount of portions. example 6 pieces of brisket instead of filling the boxes. Every box in the competition should look exactly the same regardless of the category for every team , every box. Another question i am pondering is Do judges rate your food bad if you do NOT fill the box. I think that teams spend tons of cash to do these competitions and that doesn't mean that the teams are there to feed the judges, their families, dogs, and cats for months at a time. Why do judges come to comp's with coolers the size of mini fridges. Also without standardization of the portions one could actually cheat that way. example I am going to put all my pulled pork in top portion of box and my money muscle at the bottom wrapped with parsley. if portions were controlled and layout of meat in boxes is controlled then there can be no cheating. I am just trying to get rid of unnecessary expenses (cooking tons of food to stuff a box full so I can please an entire judges family or so that judge doesn't have to buy food for a month), and wasting my time messing with garnishes.
 
It sounds like, and your seemingly anonymous username suggests, you have some serious beef with KCBS style competitions. If you don't like the competition format of KCBS, find another sanctioning body to compete under or start your own. Garnish is part of KCBS and is part of its history and isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

There are countless ways somebody could "theoretically" cheat. That does not mean we should put in place every imaginable stop-gap to prevent it.

The strategy of filling a box with meat is simple--when done properly it looks better. It is not to get the judge excited about filling his/her cooler, it looks better and has been proven by winning cooks and passed down accordingly. And give me a break about saving money. The bare minimum amount you have to cook is one brisket, one pork shoulder, one rack of ribs, and six pieces of chicken. This by itself is more than enough to amply fill a box with meat.

BTW-There is no requirment for garnish. If you don't want to mess with it, you don't have to. :thumb:
 
I can't say that cheating or attempting to cheat has ever crossed my mind. They handed me the rules, I read them and did what I was supposed to.

I'm relatively new but I've done KCBS, IBCA and FBA, I followed the same MO each time. Read the rules, execute, turn in.

Nor have I ever wondered what happened to my box of most times mediocre meat after judging. NOR do I care.

Each association is different, if I don't like one, I'll find a competition sanctioned by the other.

If I want a conspiracy theory I'll google "the grassy knoll" or listen to the nut jobs that think we destroyed the world trade centers.

I do this for fun.
 
^^^ While I do think that garnish is silly, I agree with you fully RangerJ. That's pretty much the reason that we dont do a number of the KCBS competitions around this area. I'll just save the money and participate in the MBN one right around the corner.

It's KCBS; they allow garnish. Get over it. Garnish, or dont. It's your choice. Exercise it (your choice). I do (exercise my choice), and I compete elsewhere.
 
guy, the garnish debate has been here about as long as the grassy knoll, but that doesnt mean evenyone has come across it, and yes on the other hand, this may just be pot stirring. Albeit, the OP does hit on several controversial points discussed in the past. I'll bite.

KCBSWTF, search the forum(use the general seach at the bottom) and you will see all of your points have considerable discussion and feedback in our archives.

so, i will give my .02 cents(again)

Cheating: (Marking the box with telltale garnish), well if its obvious, the competitor will get caught. However, the same theories can be used by sayin I will be the one with the last slice of brisket being shorter, or the top left thigh will have a smudge.

Fill the box?: Face it full boxes look better. If u use garnish, a 6 piece box still looks better than an ungarnished box with alotof white space. BUT, A good judge will NOT mark down for lack of garnish, as per KCBS rules. Human nature however most likely gets int he way. So if your going the no garnish route in KCBS you better be on your game and make that box look great.

Cooler judges: Whatever. Im not going there. its legal, they exisit, whatever.

Standard portion.. TOTALLY DISAGREE. The requirement is 6.. thats all. I will always try to put in more. reasons being, 1 - i dont want the last judge to get a reject, he wants a choice too. 2 - the table captain should have a sample. If for any reason, he can make a judgement call if he sees something is awry and call over the reps.

3 - theres lots of volunteer folks in the judging tent that like to graze too.


now,questions for you.. have u been competing long, and are you a judge too?
 
Thanks for the .02 Chef... I have been wondering the same, but the fear of the "troll witch hunt" was keeping me from posting. *grin*

I was on a BBQ team for a few years, and all we ever did was IBCA sanctioned events. I remember the first time, hearing all the rules and asking questions. "Our ribs have to be laid in the box in a particular way? We have to have exactly how many pieces of brisket?". After thinking about it, it all made sense. Everyone's food needs to be judged just on the food. Good enough for me.

KCBS is similar, with just a few minor differences... (Garnish, portions, chicken is allowed to be... "altered").

The poster is probably a troll at some level (screen name FAIL) but honestly, I have some of those same questions...

"A good judge will NOT mark down for lack of garnish, as per KCBS rules."

That just doesn't make any sense to me. I'm not saying it HAS to, or that they have to change the rules, but as Chef points out... it's kind of odd. Why not allow people to furnish their own boxes?

Either way, it's a new format, and one that my new team is going to have to adapt to. Just hoping to hear some encouraging, or insightful words, rather than a wave of "If you don't like the game, don't play.".

Cheers! :)
 
BBQchef33 said:
guy, the garnish debate has been here about as long as the grassy knoll, but that doesnt mean evenyone has come across it, and yes on the other hand, this may just be pot stirring. Albeit, the OP does hit on several controversial points discussed in the past. I'll bite.

KCBSWTF, search the forum(use the general seach at the bottom) and you will see all of your points have considerable discussion and feedback in our archives.

so, i will give my .02 cents(again)

Cheating: (Marking the box with telltale garnish), well if its obvious, the competitor will get caught. However, the same theories can be used by sayin I will be the one with the last slice of brisket being shorter, or the top left thigh will have a smudge.

Fill the box?: Face it full boxes look better. If u use garnish, a 6 piece box still looks better than an ungarnished box with alotof white space. BUT, A good judge will NOT mark down for lack of garnish, as per KCBS rules. Human nature however most likely gets int he way. So if your going the no garnish route in KCBS you better be on your game and make that box look great.

Cooler judges: Whatever. Im not going there. its legal, they exisit, whatever.

Standard portion.. TOTALLY DISAGREE. The requirement is 6.. thats all. I will always try to put in more. reasons being, 1 - i dont want the last judge to get a reject, he wants a choice too. 2 - the table captain should have a sample. If for any reason, he can make a judgement call if he sees something is awry and call over the reps.

3 - theres lots of volunteer folks in the judging tent that like to graze too.


now,questions for you.. have u been competing long, and are you a judge too?
Click to expand...

Hey, why you calling me out? I didn't start this thread.:eusa_clap:-D
 
Its easy to fix this problem, dont cook KCBS, cook all Texas bbq, we dont garnish the box ever. But if your gonna cook in a sanctioning body then why not follow the rules?:confused:


I have just started coking KCBS over the last year and dont really like the garnish, you just have to roll with it...once you get use to it it anit rally that bad or time consining.....Im just sayin:becky:
 
Dear (suspected) Troll;

IF you can find your 15 CBJs who would take your cold hard cash without turning your arse in to the Reps, what makes you think that they would be able to "help" you? There are six judges at each table, each judge gets ONE scoring slip - that's it. Once one of your entries has hit a certain table that table won't get another one of your boxes that day. So, here's how I figure it: at a comp with 25 teams you are going to have 4 tables of 6 judges each (24 judges). You would have to have a minimum of 12 judges (3 at each table) in your pocket & each of them would have to be able to pick out your box in each catagory.
Now - if your so-called bought judges gave 9s across the board & the other 3 gave 6s or 7s what happens? Yep - you're out your bribe money & you still suck.
 
Rookie'48 said:
Dear (suspected) Troll;

IF you can find your 15 CBJs who would take your cold hard cash without turning your arse in to the Reps, what makes you think that they would be able to "help" you? There are six judges at each table, each judge gets ONE scoring slip - that's it. Once one of your entries has hit a certain table that table won't get another one of your boxes that day. So, here's how I figure it: at a comp with 25 teams you are going to have 4 tables of 6 judges each (24 judges). You would have to have a minimum of 12 judges (3 at each table) in your pocket & each of them would have to be able to pick out your box in each catagory.
Now - if your so-called bought judges gave 9s across the board & the other 3 gave 6s or 7s what happens? Yep - you're out your bribe money & you still suck.
Click to expand...



:popcorn:...great comment Rookie, and I agree...:becky:
 
Rookie'48 said:
Dear (suspected) Troll;

IF you can find your 15 CBJs who would take your cold hard cash without turning your arse in to the Reps, what makes you think that they would be able to "help" you? There are six judges at each table, each judge gets ONE scoring slip - that's it. Once one of your entries has hit a certain table that table won't get another one of your boxes that day. So, here's how I figure it: at a comp with 25 teams you are going to have 4 tables of 6 judges each (24 judges). You would have to have a minimum of 12 judges (3 at each table) in your pocket & each of them would have to be able to pick out your box in each catagory.
Now - if your so-called bought judges gave 9s across the board & the other 3 gave 6s or 7s what happens? Yep - you're out your bribe money & you still suck.
Click to expand...
Thank you!

And one more two cents worth -

If there was an entry with obviously out of the ordinary, easily identifiable garnish there would soon be questions of marking.

Plus - the money's not all that much anyway. Compared to how much you spend throughout the season competing, the financial cost of cheating alone would not pay off, even if you did bribe the judges.

And I agree with Rookie48 - I don't think you could find enough judges who would NOT turn you in for the attempted bribe.

Only rookie judges carry the uncool, huge-arsed coolers and they learn quick to be more modest. A lot of the judges don't even take any samples home.
 
Rookie'48 said:
Dear (suspected) Troll;

IF you can find your 15 CBJs who would take your cold hard cash without turning your arse in to the Reps, what makes you think that they would be able to "help" you? There are six judges at each table, each judge gets ONE scoring slip - that's it. Once one of your entries has hit a certain table that table won't get another one of your boxes that day. So, here's how I figure it: at a comp with 25 teams you are going to have 4 tables of 6 judges each (24 judges). You would have to have a minimum of 12 judges (3 at each table) in your pocket & each of them would have to be able to pick out your box in each catagory.
Now - if your so-called bought judges gave 9s across the board & the other 3 gave 6s or 7s what happens? Yep - you're out your bribe money & you still suck.
Click to expand...

Well put, my friend!! :laugh::laugh::laugh:
 
Rookie'48 said:
IF you can find your 15 CBJs who would take your cold hard cash without turning your arse in to the Reps, what makes you think that they would be able to "help" you? There are six judges at each table, each judge gets ONE scoring slip - that's it. Once one of your entries has hit a certain table that table won't get another one of your boxes that day. So, here's how I figure it: at a comp with 25 teams you are going to have 4 tables of 6 judges each (24 judges). You would have to have a minimum of 12 judges (3 at each table) in your pocket & each of them would have to be able to pick out your box in each catagory.
Now - if your so-called bought judges gave 9s across the board & the other 3 gave 6s or 7s what happens? Yep - you're out your bribe money & you still suck.
Click to expand...

Excellent point Rookie. Worth noting though is the following... (Since I got to see it at the TAFR Houston Wild Game cookoff just last weekend...)

When you get into large fields (124 teams was the count last weekend), you have to have a LOT of judges. The first round of judging is usually recruited from any visitors that are non-cook team personnel. If a table of 6 judges can sample say... 15 dishes, and there were 5 categories, that's ..

248 judges. Less because all teams don't compete in all 5 categories (Ribs, Chicken, Brisket, Seafood, Wild Game, fwiw), but still, assume a lot of standers-by are going to be judging.

(they only judge the first round, final table were all acclaimed IBCA judges)

The point being, if you had say, 30 guests hanging around or visiting your cook when they (desperately) were trolling for judges... it's very possible you could have a lot of people on the table, looking for your eats.

Just sayin... not all judges are TRUE IBCA/KCBS judges. In big arenas, eaters get you to the final table, judges hand out prizes. It doesn't take cash to influence eaters...
 
While I would be thrilled not the have to do garnish (mine suck) I do them because I want to score higher. If garnish was THAT much of a problem for me, I wouldn't compete in KCBS.

Good discussion and input so far. If you WERE looking to start a flame war, I'm glad no one has taken you up on it.

I just wish Parsley Lady would do my boxes for me when my wife stays home. Ron???

:)
 
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