Mandatory Comment Cards for a score below a 6

I got a comment card on a 5 one time that said it tasted like ketchup. Go figure.

Slamdunkpro said:

Just because you didn't get a comment card doesn't mean the judge didn't write one. The KCBS reps edit/discard them at their discretion.

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Absolutley untrue.... Who told you that this is the case or are you guessing that's what happens?
During judges instructions we are told that ALL cards get attached to your score sheets, period.

As far as mandatory comment cards at any given number, whatever one you choose (4,5,6) it puts a mental block that says if I give that number I have to fill out a card. Chances are you'll never see that number or lower again. Is that how you think judging should go?
Remember a 5 is just simply below average, not crap, not inedible, 5 is not that far out of whack. If your food is just slightly less than average your gonna get a 5. I have given out several 5's this year.
And as a rule I have filled out 4 comment cards also. They simply said what it was that made that sample a 5. Thats how the system works.
Tis true all judges don't always get it, but find anything in life that is just the way everbody wants it.
Ed

QueTPiesBBQ said:

I got a comment card on a 5 one time that said it tasted like ketchup. Go figure.

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So the judge didn't like your sauce and told you why.....
what more do you want?
Ed

I have judged or Table Captained 10 contest this year and I beleive that every REP while doing his speach has told us if we score a 5 or below to please write a comment card as to why you are giving that score. That way they have a justification to the team and it will also let the team know why it was given.
As someone mentioned above I'm sure there are some judges that won't give a 5 or below because they have to fill out the comment card.
But then you have some judges(not many) that give them out left and right and it doesn't bother them to fill out the cards.
When I table Captain I do look at the judges cards for low scores and if I see one judge giving a lot of them or more than the rest of the judges I do let the REP know. It is the REPS jobs to talk to them not the TC.

ModelMaker said:

Absolutley untrue.... Who told you that this is the case or are you guessing that's what happens?
During judges instructions we are told that ALL cards get attached to your score sheets, period.

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Ever worked an event? If not I suggest you do before you make statements like this. I've witnessed various reps discarding comment cards on multiple occasions.

ZILLA said:

You want higher scores? Learn to cook better. A low score should be all the comment you need. If you're a cooker you should be able to figure it out like all the others that took the time and made the effort and investment to get it right without some self righteous CBJ telling you what direction to head. You want a CBJ to tell you what's wrong? Really? You would end up with rubber stamp BBQ.

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I think our record would substantiate that we have indeed learned to cook better. And we still see way too many rogue scores to just blow it off. If one is fortunate to live in an area with a plethora of experienced and consistent judges, it's a non-issue for you -- that doesn't mean it isn't an issue for others.

ModelMaker said:

As far as mandatory comment cards at any given number, whatever one you choose (4,5,6) it puts a mental block that says if I give that number I have to fill out a card. Chances are you'll never see that number or lower again.

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Every judge that fills out a comment card now for those numbers refutes that idea. I would not, however, advocate a mandatory card for a 6.

ZILLA said:

How about everyone gets 8s and 9s then a rubber stamp of a big smiley face on your comment card or maybe a gold star.

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I apologize for the threadjack, but why is it that every time some one asks for ways to improve consistancy in KCBS scoring, some one has to come on the thread and sarcastically suggest that every one get a 180 and a trophy like a children's karate tournament? Is it always the same person or two? I don't think that any one here is in doubt of the fact that BBQ comps are in fact competitions and that some people do better than others. I also don't think that any one doubts that there are some teams, here in The Brethren and otherwise, who are just better than than other teams, in product, consitency, or both. Still, people get frustrated with left field scores, and it comes up enough that maybe, just maybe it's worth having a conversation about it.

Some competitors are just so darned good that they never get anything below an 8, great for them! Other's have resigned themselves to the fact that the stray 6 or 5 or whatever is going to find its way into their scorecard no matter how good they feel their product was. That's very admirable. Others still want to be good, want to improve, and want to ensure that when they do get a good product out there, they get rewarded for it. I'd like to suggest that those who know that their product is always great and never get a bad score discuss that amongst themselves. Is it really productive to imply that people are asking for a GC trophy every time scoring anomolies are discussed? Does that ever really help anything? Am I the only one who feels this way (Very likely, so don't worry).

Again, sorry for the threadjack. If mods feel this should be its own thread, lemme know and I'll copy and paste it there.

dmp

Slamdunkpro said:

More hijacking

Score "creep" is a big issue - 7's used to be good, 8's great and 9's rare. Now it's almost expected to be given 8's just for making it to the turn in table without tripping.

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Hijacking my arse! You need to read my post and it's intent "Slamdunkpro".

Let me carify....Quit whining! Is that a little more clear? Go cook and live with it! How about this one...Not everybody is going to like your food or thinks as much of it as you do.

Slamdunkpro said:

Ever worked an event? If not I suggest you do before you make statements like this. I've witnessed various reps discarding comment cards on multiple occasions.

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No I have never stood at the score input table but the statement I made
" ALL cards get attached to your score sheets" is a direct quote from the president of the KCBS if your reps are " discarding comment cards on multiple occasions" they appear to be acting out of compliance with what Mr Lake is instructing.
Perhaps you should follow up with a communication to Mike as this only defeats the effort to help cook teams understand their scoreing questions.
Ed

Sledneck said:

Should there be a mandatory comment card for a score below a 6? Has this ever been discussed/voted on? Does anybody else support this? If enough members are interested in making this a rule how do we get it on the table?

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I would like to see it mandatory, but don't think it ever will be. I believe KCBS might be worried you would drive those judges away if they feel pressured to do so...I think that would be the best thing that could happen to the judging pool...You need judges who are as commited to excellence in the judging as you do a cook competing. If the judge is not willing to make that commitment, I hope they will be driven out. I know as a competitor I have a little different view of judging then someone who does not. It seems we are constantly adding new judges here in CA. It probably took me a little less time to take the personal aspect of judging out of the equation because I compete, but it simpily does take time...I dont know how many times I have sat at a table with a non-CBJ or one that has judged 1-2 contest and they will give a score below a six and not even consider advising the team why...And I agree, the comment needs to be constructive and informative, if you cant articulate why you gave it a 3, 4 or 5, you have no business sitting in the seat.

I wish CBJ classes would concentrate on what makes BBQ above or below average, not is there Red leaf or kale in a box, how often does that happen at a contest?

But if I give a judge in a class a choice of Brisket, Butt, Ribs or Chicken, each one cooked to 160°, 195° and 215° do any of you competition cooks think there may be a difference in the tenderness of each of those...If I submit a non seasoned, a "properly" seasoned and a super coated with rub and sauce, do you think there maybe a different flavor profile...never understood why things like this are not done at classes. You know I am not gonna be sitting at the Algonquin Round table anytime soon, if I can think up this stuff, I am sure there are a lot smarter folks at KCBS that should be able to too!

(This is only my opinion!). I think the reasoning behind comment cards is good, but the mandatory card if you give a 6 or below has one effect -- it makes judges score higher. It's the lazy factor, give a bad entry a 7 and you don't have to do anything. Look at the number of 180s this year compared to 2009 or 2008 even. After the rules were changed to start at 6 and go up or down, judges used the whole spectrum of numbers and there were very few perfect scores. I can remember back in 2004 when I attended the banquet, there were so many 180s that it really didn't mean much. I would hate for 180s to get back to that point because we've essentially put in place a 7-8-9 scoring preference. (Did I say that this is only my opinion??? Ir is and I hate getting comment cards on my entries!)

ZILLA said:

Hijacking my arse! You need to read my post and it's intent "Slamdunkpro".

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Um,,,the "more Hijacking" was in reference to my comment, not your post


Lighten up Francis.

I agree about the mandatory cards effecting judges and them scoring up... i do know when I get the cards, all it does it upset me. The best comment is the old "tastes like lighter fluid"... Um, OK, but I am a pellethead. (Using the best pellets made out on the circuit!!!) :becky:

On the other subject. I don't have any data, I am sure you do on this subject. But are there more 180's now, compared to when the new rules went in to effect? How have they increased over the years since the change? I am also finding more and more ties at the contests that I am cooking. Is that a coincidence? I have no clue. Is the system perfect? No. but I am not sure if there is a perfect system...

Candy Sue said:

(This is only my opinion!). I think the reasoning behind comment cards is good, but the mandatory card if you give a 6 or below has one effect -- it makes judges score higher. It's the lazy factor, give a bad entry a 7 and you don't have to do anything. Look at the number of 180s this year compared to 2009 or 2008 even. After the rules were changed to start at 6 and go up or down, judges used the whole spectrum of numbers and there were very few perfect scores. I can remember back in 2004 when I attended the banquet, there were so many 180s that it really didn't mean much. I would hate for 180s to get back to that point because we've essentially put in place a 7-8-9 scoring preference. (Did I say that this is only my opinion??? Ir is and I hate getting comment cards on my entries!)

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I'll tell you right up front that yes I do cull comment cards. Many times there are comment cards filled out improperly such as no team number or a comment, but no scores written down to go along with the comment. AND, if the comment is not CONSTRUCTIVE, it may get tossed. I've tossed one that said a team's meat "smelled like vomit". I've tossed one that said "it sucked". What good would it have done to pass those on to the teams. NONE. I only wish I could have determined the judges that wrote them. But, I did not read them until later.

Whenever I am the Rep conducting the judges' meeting, I always stress that comment cards must be constructive and, also, remind them that they are voluntary. However, I will ask them to fill one out or, at least, tell me the reasoning behind a score that is out of line with the table. My reasoning is that I need an answer when that team asks me "why?" once they've received their scoring packet. But, I also make sure they understand that I am not telling them how to judge and am not trying to tell them they are wrong in their scoring. If they felt that was the score they needed to give, so be it. But, be ready to explain.

Sorry for the long post.

Phillip

Yes, as Sled suggested I'll move on.

I agree wholeheartedly with the earlier post that a specific score mandating a comment card will engender a tendency to score above that number.

I think that the solution is to have more active encouragement from reps, table captains and organizers to give feedback and fill out comment cards.

I certainly point the finger at myself here, as I should be more proactive about this than I have been. I'll definitely try to encourage it more in events that I help to run in the future.

Eric