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Judging Questions

As much as the cooks want a perfect judging pool based on a standard set of rules it's impossible to happen. It's still a reliable system but ultimately based on subjectivity and a person's senses (sight, taste, touch etc). Judging is a hobby not a paid position. Especially if a contest has only 50-75% certified judges, you've got to think about pleasing the remaining 25-50% who have never seen a turn in box before and making your box standout.

Most of the suggestions seen here come from the competitors (some of whom are also judges) and a smaller % come from judges only. Coming from a the competitor, it makes perfect sense that their suggestions are focused on the details to try to gain an extra a point or two as mentioned above.. From a judge, it would only be valuable if that's what they know about how other judges think and not what they do themselves.
 
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Divemaster said:
While I would tend to agree with you, I can also see getting a quick glance at a box and thinking that it was put together quickly and without the attention to detail... What other details did they miss when cooking the brisket?
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Lakeside Smoker said:
Your assuming they cooked the brisket wrong because the parsley wasn't neat? That's a new one.
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What I was trying to get across is that a lack of attention to detail in one area often leads to a lack of attention to detail in another.

If a box looks like the meat an garnish were just tossed in, then yes, I'm not going to score it well on appearance, and I'm going to be more critical when it comes to taste and tenderness. Like it or not, we do "eat with our eyes".

I'm not saying that a single piece of parsley out of place is going to make me knock off points left and right... What I'm saying is that a well put together box is going to make me want to score it higher... Like it or not, that's the way it is...

watertowerbbq said:
This is the kind of thinking that drives me nuts. Why do you assume that they missed something when cooking their brisket? Don't insert you own set of rules when judging. It's not fair and it's not allowed.
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These are not "my rules"... This is what I was taught in my CBJ class... If it makes you want to jump in and grab a piece of meat, score it higher, if not, score it lower...

watertowerbbq said:
I was judginig a couple of years ago at the BarbeQlossal in Des Moines. One of the judges at the table downrated a pork entry because the box only had pulled pork in it. She said if they wanted a higher score they had to put in sliced pork in her opinion. WTF?
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She was wrong... Plain and simple... What does that have to do with garnish?

watertowerbbq said:
Don't assume because the garnish is not up to your standards that there is something wrong with the meat. Just judge the meat on it's merit.
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If it looks good to you and not to me, who is right? Who's "Standards" should be imposed?

Again, I didn't say that there was any thing wrong with the meat... Again, it's the attention to detail...

If a box looks good, well put together, scoring it up is easier... There's an anticipation to trying the meat and because of that I'll be more open to the flavors put before me.

If a box looks like crap, it's going to take more for me to score it up and to be honest, in the back of my mind I'm going to be thinking, "They didn't care about presentation, what else didn't they care about?"

If presentation didn't matter, why do we score on appearance?
 
Divemaster said:
What I was trying to get across is that a lack of attention to detail in one area often leads to a lack of attention to detail in another.

If a box looks like the meat an garnish were just tossed in, then yes, I'm not going to score it well on appearance, and I'm going to be more critical when it comes to taste and tenderness. Like it or not, we do "eat with our eyes".

I'm not saying that a single piece of parsley out of place is going to make me knock off points left and right... What I'm saying is that a well put together box is going to make me want to score it higher... Like it or not, that's the way it is...


These are not "my rules"... This is what I was taught in my CBJ class... If it makes you want to jump in and grab a piece of meat, score it higher, if not, score it lower...



She was wrong... Plain and simple... What does that have to do with garnish?


If it looks good to you and not to me, who is right? Who's "Standards" should be imposed?

Again, I didn't say that there was any thing wrong with the meat... Again, it's the attention to detail...

If a box looks good, well put together, scoring it up is easier... There's an anticipation to trying the meat and because of that I'll be more open to the flavors put before me.

If a box looks like crap, it's going to take more for me to score it up and to be honest, in the back of my mind I'm going to be thinking, "They didn't care about presentation, what else didn't they care about?"

If presentation didn't matter, why do we score on appearance?
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Let me clarify what I was trying to say. It is human nature to look at a poorly put together box and think that maybe it won't taste good. It's also human nature to look at a good box and assume that it will taste good. I get that. However, a judge should make every effort to taste the meat and judge taste and tenderness it on that alone and try to remove the appearance from the taste and tenderness. I've judged entries that looked great and tasted like crap and vice versa. I'm sure you have too.

The point I was making about the other judge was in response to the comment about "They didn't care about presentation, what else didn't they care about?" In that instance, she was injecting her own personal beliefs into the scorinig. I think assuming that the cook did something else poorly because the garnish looks bad is injecting your own rules into the system. Deduct from the appearance score if it is warranted, but try to start with a fresh mind on taste and tenderness.

Presentation does matter and sometimes the garnish doesn't look as good as it could. I'd also say what looks good to you as garnish, may not be to my liking. Maybe I think all garnish should look like putting greens and maybe you think differently. To some, big leafy lettuce might be appealing. To others, that may look sloppy.

I'm a cook first and sometimes when I'm judging, it's hard to look past the garnish and focus on the meat. However, I've gotten to the point where I remind myself every time before the box is opened to focus on the meat. I think it's helped me be more consistent with the appearance scores I write down.

Think of it this way, you should get the same or very nearly the same score for an entry as far as taste and tenderness are concerned whether you were blind folded or not.
 
if your judging meat why is there green stuff in the box???????
 
Jeff and Matt, you both have good insight. Both are trying to be fair and more opinions are always good: however, I do believe that the appearance does influence, to some degree, the other scores. Not saying that's right or wrong but I think it is just the way it is.
 
watertowerbbq said:
Let me clarify what I was trying to say. It is human nature to look at a poorly put together box and think that maybe it won't taste good. It's also human nature to look at a good box and assume that it will taste good. I get that. However, a judge should make every effort to taste the meat and judge taste and tenderness it on that alone and try to remove the appearance from the taste and tenderness. I've judged entries that looked great and tasted like crap and vice versa. I'm sure you have too.

The point I was making about the other judge was in response to the comment about "They didn't care about presentation, what else didn't they care about?" In that instance, she was injecting her own personal beliefs into the scorinig. I think assuming that the cook did something else poorly because the garnish looks bad is injecting your own rules into the system. Deduct from the appearance score if it is warranted, but try to start with a fresh mind on taste and tenderness.

Presentation does matter and sometimes the garnish doesn't look as good as it could. I'd also say what looks good to you as garnish, may not be to my liking. Maybe I think all garnish should look like putting greens and maybe you think differently. To some, big leafy lettuce might be appealing. To others, that may look sloppy.

I'm a cook first and sometimes when I'm judging, it's hard to look past the garnish and focus on the meat. However, I've gotten to the point where I remind myself every time before the box is opened to focus on the meat. I think it's helped me be more consistent with the appearance scores I write down.

Think of it this way, you should get the same or very nearly the same score for an entry as far as taste and tenderness are concerned whether you were blind folded or not.
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See, I knew you would see it my way and agree with me... lol... Just kidding.... Ducking for cover....

In actually, I think we are both very close on this subject. Both of us can see where if a judge is not careful, the appearance can affect the other two scores. The simple fact that both you and I have had to remind ourselves that appearance should have no bearing on taste or tenderness proves this out.

It is for that reason that we all have posted photos of test boxes to see where things can be improved not only for the appearance, but also for the carryover with less careful judges.

(Oh, and for my money, the putting green looks much better.)
 
In these hard economic times, the KCBS could sell us green washable food grade putting green looking things that fit perfect in the box. We wouldnt have to keep buying parsley/lettuce, and ice to keep that stuff cold saving our team about $20 a contest total.
Saves us all money and makes all garnishes equal. :razz:

hahaha
I kinda like it!
 
Meat Burner said:
Jeff and Matt, you both have good insight. Both are trying to be fair and more opinions are always good: however, I do believe that the appearance does influence, to some degree, the other scores. Not saying that's right or wrong but I think it is just the way it is.
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I totally agree, appearance does influence a score. It does in anything else we do in life. It would seem to follow then that if the garnish was removed, the resulting scores would be more standard or more consistently indicate the quality of the MEAT.

You don't suppose there are parsely farmers sending PAC money to the KCBS do you................:lol:
 
trohrs123 said:
With that being said, some threads in the competiton section that ask for people to judge their turn box have gotten suggestions like, " the burnt ends arent facing in all the same direction", etc
Based on the criteria stated above, I am not so sure that if the burnt ends are all facing the same way, it makes the judge want to "dive into the box and go to town" on the meat.
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Considering I made a statement like this on Diva Q's Brisket Turn-in post, maybe I need to clarify a little more. There was nothing wrong with that box that would make me give it anything less than a 9 in the 4-5 seconds that I first looked at it. It was very appealing to me and if it was actually presented to me at a comp, I would look forward to tasting it. And yes, when people ask me to judge their box, I do click on it and give it a once over the first time, make a judgment and then go back and look at it in detail. A little strange but it's the only way to judge it just like I would at a comp. I didn't notice the symmetry of the burnt ends the first time but when I studied the pic later, I saw it.

Now when I made that comment, I prefaced it with "If I HAD to find something wrong...." It was not meant as anything other than constructive criticism. While I didn't catch it the first time around (even if I had, I seriously doubt it would have affected my scoring), someone else may have caught it on that initial glance. And even if the overall appearance made them want to go to town on the box, if they were a stickler for details, it may have made them have to debate between a 9 or an 8. This is why a lot of folks here go back and really critique turn in boxes posted here to help catch little glitches like that. This way things are addressed so that the judge who is a stickler for details doesn't have to debate. :wink:
 
Brethren Disclaimer
Thoughts from a second year CBJ.
I judged 11 or 12 comps in 2008.
I've yet to compete.

Judging garnish, I look at:
Is it nicely done? Is it neat?
Does the green favorably complement the meat?
Is it legal?
Period.
Next box.
For me, that is the end of the visual influence.

Think about it, in the next step, each judge picks a piece from the passing boxes. In doing so, that presentation is being dismantled. By the time all of the entries are on my judging "plate" that first impression association has vanished. Hence, in my experience, at the judges' table, appearance has zero influence on taste, texture.
 
I have competed for several years now. Although I know the importance of garnish in a KCBS contest, I find it funny that in other culinary competitions garnish is supposed to be FUNCTIONAL. Or in other words, bring something to the party from a taste standpoint. You should be able to eat the garnish and it enhances the dish. But for some reason in KCBS contests garnish is nothing more than a picture frame. Dont understand it but we all do it and spend a LOT of time on it.

Just my $.02
 
this is all will say can you judge the meet and not judge the sauce on it because your not suposed to judge the sauce just the meet .... same thing with garnish its there so you judge it!!! as for me i think every one who uses sauce is a cheeter ... and should be flogged thank you for your time...lol
 
Vinny, you should have locked the thread right after your first reply and made it a sticky. :-D
 
FatBoyz said:
this is all will say can you judge the meet and not judge the sauce on it because your not suposed to judge the sauce just the meet .... same thing with garnish its there so you judge it!!! as for me i think every one who uses sauce is a cheeter ... and should be flogged thank you for your time...lol
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Dang it Billy, Don't get me started on that subject!!!!
 
all of this is good information, and i will see how we are taught this saturday in columbia mo at the kcba class i will be taking:p
 
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