Adam Perry Lang's theory on wrapping

ZILLA said:

I don't think so, as food cooks a thin layer of air and moister surrounds the food itself. It takes time for this layer to disapate. A full pit would increase that time.

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time? in foil your brasing the meat 100% humidity. even if you have a microcliamte around the meat, some boundry layer effect it wouldn't be 100% humidity and your not brazing the meat. if it's a microcliamte that developes around what's being cooked, why would the amount being cooked make a diffrence. no matter how many butts/briskets you have in the cooker, there has to be sufficent airflow thru the cooker to keep the fire burning so there's always airflow accross the meat. i also don't think (even if the microclimate idea is correct) that meat sealed in foil is undergoing the same cooking process as unwraped meat in a full cooker.

BBQ_MAFIA said:

I never cooked with a Guru so I don't know how it gets affected by the moisture. To be honest, I haven't had a problem with my Spicewine at all. Then again, I may not have tried to cook as much volume at one time. Wish I could help, but just don't know what to say.

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Its not so much a p5roblem just a true difference in achieving temperature. With the guru the stacks are closed down to a point where a positive flow is only created with the fan. The cooker doesn't "breathe the same as when you maintain temp without forced air. Not having done enough cooks with a full pit I have not been able to dial it in. Fact is that the pit, full or near empty, cooks like nothing I've cooked on before. As for the guru and moisture. There has been some talk of high moisture affecting the probe. I don't know how true it is but I have heard it mentioned. I've also heard some will not use the water pan because of it.

ZILLA said:

This is why convection ovens are used in commercial applications. The forced air blows that vapor air barier away from the surface of the food to speed up cooking times and at lower temperatures and also providing very even temps through out the oven..

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Wow thank for that insight. I always wondered why it burned my food. lol

RichardF said:

why would the amount being cooked make a diffrence. no matter how many butts/briskets you have in the cooker, there has to be sufficent airflow thru the cooker to keep the fire burning so there's always airflow accross the meat.

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Funny I think I can speak to this not because of BBQ experience but work experience. I am a quality control specialist for an asphalt production facility. The quote around here is, "If you can't move air you can't make asphalt". The production facility is a big vacuum cleaner. Air is forced through the system to drag the heavy moistened air out of the chamber. The heavier the production and the greater the moisture the harder it is to create heat in the aggregate (sand and stone). Each aggregate particle has surface and internal moisture. The surface moisture leaves quickly while more therms and time are required to push the moisture from the micro fractures. During this process the stone will not heat above boiling point. I think the same thing goes for meat in a cooker. The barrier Zilla speaks of is that internal moisture being driven off. Now to speak to the full or empty chamber. When it has rained and we try to push the maximum ton per hour through the plant it gets choked out because there is too much moisture in the air. The air flow slows and stalls in some places. Since hot air rises the heat from the flame is pulled past these heavy pockets of moistened air and right out the stack. The hot air follows the path of least resistence and bypasses the heavy air. This then chokes down the flame because the moisture now changes the oxygen content for combustion. A pit works very similar. If the meat in the box is producing a heavy air pocket in the cooker then the heat will follow the path of least resistance and bypass the heavy air which will sit around the meat. Just my humble opinion.

Skip said:

Wow thank for that insight. I always wondered why it burned my food. lol



Funny I think I can speak to this not because of BBQ experience but work experience. I am a quality control specialist for an asphalt production facility. The quote around here is, "If you can't move air you can't make asphalt". The production facility is a big vacuum cleaner. Air is forced through the system to drag the heavy moistened air out of the chamber. The heavier the production and the greater the moisture the harder it is to create heat in the aggregate (sand and stone). Each aggregate particle has surface and internal moisture. The surface moisture leaves quickly while more therms and time are required to push the moisture from the micro fractures. During this process the stone will not heat above boiling point. I think the same thing goes for meat in a cooker. The barrier Zilla speaks of is that internal moisture being driven off. Now to speak to the full or empty chamber. When it has rained and we try to push the maximum ton per hour through the plant it gets choked out because there is too much moisture in the air. The air flow slows and stalls in some places. Since hot air rises the heat from the flame is pulled past these heavy pockets of moistened air and right out the stack. The hot air follows the path of least resistence and bypasses the heavy air. This then chokes down the flame because the moisture now changes the oxygen content for combustion. A pit works very similar. If the meat in the box is producing a heavy air pocket in the cooker then the heat will follow the path of least resistance and bypass the heavy air which will sit around the meat. Just my humble opinion.

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While i don't fully understand the physics i can accept the analogy and have always agreed that there is more moisture in a fully loaded pit then a lightly loaded pit. are you describing a situation where there is reduced airflow in the proximity of the meat because of heavy air in the proximity? after a rain is the problem that the aggregate is wet or that relative humidity has increased or both. is one of the remedies to this to increase airflow and temperature/or fuel burned to maintain a constant temperature. so if you have a moist environment either from multiple birskets or from humidity introduced by a water pan, shouldn't the brisket your cooking behave the same way? this still doesn't explain how a foil wrapped brisket is analogus to a brisket cooked in a full cooker.

RichardF said:

are you describing a situation where there is reduced airflow in the proximity of the meat because of heavy air in the proximity?.

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Yes. Air flow slows the heavier the air becomes. When you reach a saturation level the air no longer mingles well and the lighter hotter air will travel past or over this heavy air and find its exit.

RichardF said:

after a rain is the problem that the aggregate is wet or that relative humidity has increased or both..

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The higher moisture in the aggregate causes the most problem. The plant is designed to move a specific column of air. as that air becomes heavier the plant becomes less efficient. Since you are moving the same quantity of material but dealing with more moisture the column of air can become too heavy to move. This causes problems which lead to a collapse of air flow. Once that happens the bypassing hot air spikes out the stack temp while the heavy air then chokes out the fire.

RichardF said:

is one of the remedies to this to increase airflow and temperature/or fuel burned to maintain a constant temperature.

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Actually no. The remedy is to lower production so that the column of air created is able to be moved by the force air exhaust. Fuel consumption will go up relative to tons produced though since more drying is necessary. Air flow as well is limited to a max. This problem occurs when you exceed the max capabilities of your exhaust system.

RichardF said:

so if you have a moist environment either from multiple birskets or from humidity introduced by a water pan, shouldn't the brisket your cooking behave the same way?

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Not in my opinion. The moisture from the water pan is similar to the first drying that takes place. When we drive off suface moisture. This portion is constant in that the surface area of the water in the pan is pretty much constant and the release of moisture into the chamber is metered relative to the temperature. The humidity from the briskets is relative to how it is released which can spike and is not as even as the release from the water pan. Similar to the way the internal moisture in the aggregate is driven off at one specific point in the process.

RichardF said:

this still doesn't explain how a foil wrapped brisket is analogus to a brisket cooked in a full cooker.

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Exactly the same no. But having a similar cook possibly IMO. There is a pressure created when the column of air becomes too heavy. This pressure quite possibly could mimic the conditions inside the foil. A pressure cooker works on the same principle. Its just how efficient each aspect is. The pressure cooker then the foil then the presure laden full cooker. There are similarities in each enviroment.

Again this is all theory and opinion backed by experience.

my brain hurts now.

:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin: But did you learn anything??

Paul

RichardF said:

time? in foil your brasing the meat 100% humidity. even if you have a microcliamte around the meat, some boundary layer effect it wouldn't be 100% humidity and your not brazing the meat. if it's a microclimate that develops around what's being cooked, why would the amount being cooked make a difference. no matter how many butts/briskets you have in the cooker, there has to be sufficient airflow thru the cooker to keep the fire burning so there's always airflow across the meat. i also don't think (even if the micro-climate idea is correct) that meat sealed in foil is undergoing the same cooking process as unwrapped meat in a full cooker.

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It may not be the exact same process but it may produce the same outcome. Protecting the vapor barrier around the meat.

Now, all things being equal at the start of the cook for all briskets, fat to lean tissue ratio, % of moisture in the meat, total weight. Any change in any of these and results will vary, maybe to a great degree.

O #1 - When cooking BBQ, I want the vapor barrier there as long as possible because I think this leads to a product with greater moisteure content when finished. At some point introduing foil to protect the brisket from loosing it's vapor barrier "too soon" works well. The more meat you have in your smoker the less likely it is that you will need foil to accomplih this. Cooking 250*

O #2 - This vapor barrier cannot be replaced by a pan or water sitting in the smoker.

O #3 - Any water vapor produced by a water pan will likely move right on out of the cooker along with the smoke and any water vapor produced by combustion of the fuel. I don't see it hanging around inside the cooker. The Vapor around the food is different.

O #4 - The time is takes for meat in a full smoker to dry out will be longer than the same smoker with one brisket in it. Even though a smoker full of meat may show a rebound temp time of only 40 minutes longer that one with one brisket in it, the smoker is still under load. It has a somewhat reduced airflow especially around the meat and has to work harder to maintain the temps while the meat is still cooler than the temp in the cooking chamber.

So, I think that foiling brisket can replicate a full smoker better than some other methods. I actually beleive tha unwaxed butcher paper is much better than foil in this regard as it protects the vapor barrier and lets some moisture out in the process.

will Professor Skippy Burger please come to the faculty lounge?

lmoa

RichardF said:

I'd wager a cold beer that the relative humidity (i'm guessing 100%) inside the foil of a wraped brisket would be much higher than therelative humidity of a fully-loaded smoker. to recreate the humidty of multiple briskets (or butts as the case may be) i'd think you'd be much better-off with a water pan.

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exactly what i was thinking. I didnt read the entire thread yet, but i would think a pan of water would do the same thing in a large cooker with little meat.

ZILLA said:

It may not be the exact same process but it may produce the same outcome. Protecting the vapor barrier around the meat.

Now, all things being equal at the start of the cook for all briskets, fat to lean tissue ratio, % of moisture in the meat, total weight. Any change in any of these and results will vary, maybe to a great degree.

O #1 - When cooking BBQ, I want the vapor barrier there as long as possible because I think this leads to a product with greater moisteure content when finished. At some point introduing foil to protect the brisket from loosing it's vapor barrier "too soon" works well. The more meat you have in your smoker the less likely it is that you will need foil to accomplih this. Cooking 250*

O #2 - This vapor barrier cannot be replaced by a pan or water sitting in the smoker.

O #3 - Any water vapor produced by a water pan will likely move right on out of the cooker along with the smoke and any water vapor produced by combustion of the fuel. I don't see it hanging around inside the cooker. The Vapor around the food is different.

O #4 - The time is takes for meat in a full smoker to dry out will be longer than the same smoker with one brisket in it. Even though a smoker full of meat may show a rebound temp time of only 40 minutes longer that one with one brisket in it, the smoker is still under load. It has a somewhat reduced airflow especially around the meat and has to work harder to maintain the temps while the meat is still cooler than the temp in the cooking chamber.

So, I think that foiling brisket can replicate a full smoker better than some other methods. I actually beleive tha unwaxed butcher paper is much better than foil in this regard as it protects the vapor barrier and lets some moisture out in the process.

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But that's only assuming you are cooking with the fat cap up and the kingsford Ks facing the same direction, right?

BBQchef33 said:

I didnt read the entire thread yet

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Shame on you....You know better then that. Come back whe you are fully versed on the conversation. :razz::razz::razz::razz:

BBQchef33 said:

exactly what i was thinking. I didnt read the entire thread yet, but i would think a pan of water would do the same thing in a large cooker with little meat.

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Yup...I agree. If I'm not cookin' with a water pan...I'm foiling...

Muzzlebrake said:

will Professor Skippy Burger please come to the faculty lounge?

lmoa

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Why would you LYOA as opposed LYAO? :lol:

SmokeInDaEye said:

But that's only assuming you are cooking with the fat cap up and the kingsford Ks facing the same direction, right?

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Try and keep up OK! :wink:

What about wrapping with plastic wrap first and then foil to protect the plastic? I have done this before with great results.

Skip said:

Wow thank for that insight. I always wondered why it burned my food. lol



Funny I think I can speak to this not because of BBQ experience but work experience. I am a quality control specialist for an asphalt production facility. The quote around here is, "If you can't move air you can't make asphalt". The production facility is a big vacuum cleaner. Air is forced through the system to drag the heavy moistened air out of the chamber. The heavier the production and the greater the moisture the harder it is to create heat in the aggregate (sand and stone). Each aggregate particle has surface and internal moisture. The surface moisture leaves quickly while more therms and time are required to push the moisture from the micro fractures. During this process the stone will not heat above boiling point. I think the same thing goes for meat in a cooker. The barrier Zilla speaks of is that internal moisture being driven off. Now to speak to the full or empty chamber. When it has rained and we try to push the maximum ton per hour through the plant it gets choked out because there is too much moisture in the air. The air flow slows and stalls in some places. Since hot air rises the heat from the flame is pulled past these heavy pockets of moistened air and right out the stack. The hot air follows the path of least resistence and bypasses the heavy air. This then chokes down the flame because the moisture now changes the oxygen content for combustion. A pit works very similar. If the meat in the box is producing a heavy air pocket in the cooker then the heat will follow the path of least resistance and bypass the heavy air which will sit around the meat. Just my humble opinion.

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wow! i never knew an asphalt plant was like a giant smoker. i always thought making asphalt was like a rice krispie treat with the aggregate being the rice krispies and the marshmallow cream being the asphalt cement. you need to heat the marshmallow cream and mix it with the rice krispies at the right temperature to get it to mix well, then smash it in the pan (compaction) but do not compact too much because you'll break all the aggregate and it won't taste good. :biggrin:

(that analogy is copyrighted by me and you shall never speak of it again!) :biggrin:

Rick, not exactly correct, as A.C. has coarse and fine aggregate. You would need to make the rice crispies the fines and then add some coarse material, like chocolate chips or toasted peanuts to make it a more true analog to A.C. paving.

Aw chit,
Next thing you know they'll be filling our potholes around here with rice krispie treats...
Sheesh...


but I still use a water pan.

ya foil doesnt help or hurt
BIll